Should Bachfar copy Hornby by doing budget Rail Road locos and rolling stock

[mark100]

I read on the class 47/7 thread that Bachmann are trying to keep costs down on current DCC ready products because of grumbling customers. most of these new DCC ready locos, if not all are RRP over the £100.00 mark.

Hornby have came up with a Railroad range using the former Lima toolings and very old Hornby toolings on a budget chassis which is very similar to the former Lima N Gauge and Life Like set up, 1 power bogie and the other bogie has pick ups with wires leading to the power bogie.

On this forum, there are over 4000 members and obviously thousands of N Gauger's who are not on here, who model british outline.

Not everyone can afford these new dcc ready locos, Bachmann still have the old Poole toolings for locomotives, wagons and coaching stock, Maybe they would consider reusing those toolings on a budget chassis, for those interested in this hobby who could afford something at a lower price.

Anyone else think this is a good idea?

Mark

[Agrippa]

For anyone not bothered about DCC ready items or fine detail it would have appeal
assuming the cost was substantially lower than the main lineup, and the products ran ok.
Whether Bachmann would do it is debatable, for example if you wanted  a certain loco
available in both ranges many people might buy the cheaper version and thus the maker
would take longer to  recover the cost of developing the upmarket version.

The idea would appeal to those wanting a chassis or kit bashing however.

[Roy L S]

We come back to this question fairly frequently.

Personally: -

1) I don't think there would be sufficient scope to save money and bring the models down to a suitable price-point.

2) The Market isn't nearly big enough to support duplicate ranges and all it would do would be to dilute sales of the existing highly detailed models so commercially unattractive.

3) I don't think it is what the majority of modellers want anyway, regression to the crude inaccurate models of the like we had in the Farish Poole days is not at all appealing. Technology and expectation has moved on in my view.

4) By way of comparison and example, who is especially attracted to the recent Dapol "Re-treads" of the non Dcc Ivatt, 45xx and M7? In terms of running and detail these relatively new models have already been left way behind.

Regards

Roy

[acko22]

I personally don't see it been a starter, there are other issues apart from the ones Roy has pointed out.

Ok let me make sure I get the word right the DEMOGRAPHIC of N gauge modellers, as a rule of thumb N gauge is for the more adult modellers who as such demand higher standards. Also OO gauge is child friendlier and as I did I have OO gauge so a cheap version for little Jonny make sense and then Dad can have the more expensive ones.

There are lots of the older models still about and available from Fleabay and the like which you would most likely get a lot cheaper that what can be found.

As previously pointed out have duplicate ranges is a difficult balancing act and not really a risk worth taking for the N gauge market, however if there was demand for some the older range that were no long produced or going to be produced it may be worth a punt even if it was a case of detail it yourself.

[MJKERR]

Ironically, in a few years time it will be cheaper to produce models in other countries; China is becoming more expensive and the difference is less now than it was 25 years ago

Furthermore, a new supplier could fill this market
Sadly Dapol have duplicated some models already supplied by Farish (such as the Class 66)
However, Dapol produce many alternatives to the limited range offered by Farsh
The Class 37 and Class 47 could also be duplicated
Sadly the retail price remains about the same

A more basic version could be offered, but would customers be willing to sacrafice 20%, or would they prefer to pay the extra premium for the detailed model

Finally, if you want basic models, there are plenty of second hand ones on eBay UK

[mark100]

We were given a box of N Gauge 2 years ago for my son when he 8 years old, the fact that he had the smallest room in the house, it was ideal, but then we moved it to the loft for him and now he has his own shed in the garden ready for the new layout that we will build later this year.

A friend who also has a 10 year old son have N Gauge due to the size of their property, so they can run more realistic trains in a smaller space.

OO gauge and N Gauge now are virtually similar in R.R.P.

I admit there is a good strong second hand market via auction sites and various shops which both myself and son find useful when looking for locos and rolling stock.

If Bachmann still have the old Farish toolings then i think it's a shame to totally discontinue it, when others may welcome it.
ref duplication it seems that a lot of new items sell out pretty quick and become sought after such as Blue 20s, 25s, 26s, 27s, 37s, 40s, 44s, 45s, 46s, 47s, it the more unique private sector liveries that struggle to sell out and end up being sold off at discount prices. I cannot speak for Steam rolling stock as I have no interest in that era. but with diesel rolling stock green/blue and early Railfreight are the most popular.
I think the hobby is bigger than a lot think and if a manufacturer produces the right model in the right livery then they are on a winner.

[guest311]

unfortunately I agree with the sentiments that the budget range would probably reduce the sales of the detailed one, and so manufacturers would take longer to recoup costs, and therefore maybe be less interested in producing so many new models.

however, I wonder if undecorated models might be worth while ?

detailing bits in a bigger bag, the body being just that, with the locating holes for handrails etc still there for the modeller to install them after he's painted the body.

IIRC, this is more common in US HO models, but we have seen Dapol produce undecorated wagons, and I am sure that at one time they produced a loco without numbers.

the question of course is if the saving would make the model attractive to modellers.

just an idea 

alan

[mark100]

unfortunately I agree with the sentiments that the budget range would probably reduce the sales of the detailed one, and so manufacturers would take longer to recoup costs, and therefore maybe be less interested in producing so many new models.

however, I wonder if undecorated models might be worth while ?

detailing bits in a bigger bag, the body being just that, with the locating holes for handrails etc still there for the modeller to install them after he's painted the body.

IIRC, this is more common in US HO models, but we have seen Dapol produce undecorated wagons, and I am sure that at one time they produced a loco without numbers.

the question of course is if the saving would make the model attractive to modellers.

just an idea 

alan

OR! If they did a run of 2000 un-numbered BR blue 47s instead of the 500 x 47096 models (as an example) and added a pencil rub number sheet with numbers, so we could number our own.

[acko22]

If they were going to do that then why would they sell them as a cheaper alternative?

If they were going to do that Mark then realistically they would be charging more for the privilege and keep it to the higher priced models! 

[Newportnobby]

There's no way I want to regress to the Poole models I just love the newer Farish stuff with great detailing and decent motors. Just wish they'd sort the gears out so splitting doesn't occur.
No - please don't suggest reverting to brass

[mark100]

There's no way I want to regress to the Poole models I just love the newer Farish stuff with great detailing and decent motors. Just wish they'd sort the gears out so splitting doesn't occur.
No - please don't suggest reverting to brass

None of our new Farish DCC ready locos have had any gear issues, but thanks for the warning. The Poole and China split chassis flywheel stuff, we have had to stock up on spares for those, by scrapping some of the chassis units under kits which we had.

[PLD]

OR! If they did a run of 2000 un-numbered BR blue 47s instead of the 500 x 47096 models (as an example) and added a pencil rub number sheet with numbers, so we could number our own.

however, I wonder if undecorated models might be worth while ?

The trouble is the modeller seems to expect a significantly lower price for unnumbered locos when in fact the cost of the transfer sheets is greater than the few pence saving from not printing the number on the factory production line. Far from a cost saving, the production cost is actually £2-3 more (and therefore retail price should be higher by a similar amount)!!

we have seen Dapol produce undecorated wagons, and I am sure that at one time they produced a loco without numbers.

Indeed they did - a batch of Class 73s and a small run of Class 67 however they were dismal sellers... even now you can find them new and they regularly turn up second hand either badly numbered or unnumbered, but always missing the unused transfers...

[PLD]

Hornby have came up with a Railroad range using the former Lima toolings and very old Hornby toolings on a budget chassis which is very similar to the former Lima N Gauge and Life Like set up, 1 power bogie and the other bogie has pick ups with wires leading to the power bogie.

The reason the Railroad works (sort of) for Hornby is (1) 00 is the introductory trainset scale - there is a market for cheaper items who wouldn't otherwise spend on 'toy trains'. In N there is much less of that sector - we'd not spend any more just some might spend the same amount differently. and (2) they acquired the Lima range cheaply and it was initially a way to get something back for their investment in items that were not fit to sell at current market rates.

[mark100]

OR! If they did a run of 2000 un-numbered BR blue 47s instead of the 500 x 47096 models (as an example) and added a pencil rub number sheet with numbers, so we could number our own.

however, I wonder if undecorated models might be worth while ?

The trouble is the modeller seems to expect a significantly lower price for unnumbered locos when in fact the cost of the transfer sheets is greater than the few pence saving from not printing the number on the factory production line. Far from a cost saving, the production cost is actually £2-3 more (and therefore retail price should be higher by a similar amount)!!

we have seen Dapol produce undecorated wagons, and I am sure that at one time they produced a loco without numbers.

Indeed they did - a batch of Class 73s and a small run of Class 67 however they were dismal sellers... even now you can find them new and they regularly turn up second hand either badly numbered or unnumbered, but always missing the unused transfers...

I never knew that Dapol had already tried doing unnumbered locos or that doing transfer sheets would boost costs up. Thanks for sharing that.

[railsquid]

I definitely agree that the UK market is not anywhere near large enough to support a "budget" range.

As someone relatively new to N gauge, I started out naively assuming that there'd be a broad range of "standard"/"classic" stock generally available. However it looks more like there are small production runs which get sold out quickly (and the ones which don't are the ones I wouldn't really want anyway...). And you never know if/when they'll be in production again; I've ended up grabbing what I can even if it's not quite what I want.

Case in question: I'd pay actual real money for a BR blue class 86, which IIRC had an original, very limited commission production and no sign that they'll ever appear again. Instead the market is flooded with discounted 86s in various specialist liveries, some of which I've ended up acquiring with an eye to respraying at some point, and which maybe gives Dapol the impression the only market for 86s is for cheapskates.

I do sympathize with the manufacturers who are faced with a plethora of conflicting demands and livery combinations, and when it comes down to it it's a "luxury" problem which I'm not going waste energy working myself up about.

What I'd like to see is better use made of the modern communications methods we have available, so consumers can express their wants and manufacturers know better what's in demand in this quite small, specialised market. However I don't think superficial engagement by manufacturers on forums like this or social media would be particularly productive as they'd be overwhelmed with wishlists and complaints and come away with the unhelpful knowledge that everyone wants everything preferably yesterday. What might be more productive is something I'll tentatively name "batch-on-demand", where people can place (actually pledge) pre-orders which the manufacturer will fulfill within a foreseeable period (maybe with additional features like customisation). Then (to go back to the class 86 example) Dapol would know that there's e.g. demand for blue ones but not much for the yellow Network Rail one-offs. Or maybe not much demand for either... but at least they'd know, which is an improvement over the current situation where all they know is I've bought an NSE-liveried 86 for half-price.