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Your Layout and Models => On My Workbench => Topic started by: lil chris on December 05, 2017, 11:08:51 pm

Title: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 05, 2017, 11:08:51 pm
I am planning on detailing 3f/4f locos, one is a Union Mills 3f the other  GF 4f. Can anyone advise on the back of the cab is a handrail what size brass rod do I use for that, I have some .5mm is that too big.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: PLD on December 06, 2017, 07:52:27 am
0.5mm is a scale 3 inches. Think - could you comfortably hold on to a handrail that large?

Most handrails are in the region of 1.5 - 2 inch diameter - a scale 0.25 - 0.33mm. The wire I generally use is 0.31mm...
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 06, 2017, 10:03:43 am
Thanks pld that's what I thought,I was looking for 0.3mm but could not find any in the shop.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Dorsetmike on December 06, 2017, 10:31:06 am
I've found a good source of thin wire from SWG20  (0.9mm) to SWG34 (0.234mm) silver or gold finish, reels of 9M £1 also reels of 22M (sold for stringing beads in jewelry making)

https://www.therange.co.uk/hobbies-crafts/hobbies/jewellery-making-supplies/cords-and-wires/trimits-beading-wire#613451 (https://www.therange.co.uk/hobbies-crafts/hobbies/jewellery-making-supplies/cords-and-wires/trimits-beading-wire#613451)

a handy SWG conversion at
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/swg-to-mm.html (https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/swg-to-mm.html)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Shiney Sheff on December 06, 2017, 10:40:55 am
This is the one I use at 0.25 dia, they also sell the handrail knobs to go with it.

http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitbr.html (http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitbr.html)

Bob
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Dorsetmike on December 06, 2017, 12:06:13 pm
Compare the price £2.20 for 480mm (4 pieces at 120mm) against £1 for 9M ;   9M/480mm = 18.75  so £2.20 * 18.75 =  £41.25.
I rest my case.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 07, 2017, 12:23:50 am
Thanks guys I had already put a order into Nbrass for a few bits. Today I managed to pick up some florist wire for use with d&g couplings, plus I found some 0.35 piano wire in a model shop on my travels which was only coppers. No rush,
I have plenty to do over Christmas this year instead of watching the same old tosh. lol
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Atso on December 07, 2017, 08:52:39 am
I use ten thou guitar wire for my handrails. Not as easy to work or bend but I find the final result is more robust being made out of nickel coated steel.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 07, 2017, 11:05:15 am
Thanks Atso and everyone else. All these different  sizes are confusing me,only just getting used to metric. I will probably use the h/rail from n brass he as already posted the order off too me. The thing that confuses me is the pictures I have of 3f's the h/rail down the side of the boiler looks very large compared to the ones on the cab.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: PLD on December 08, 2017, 07:47:09 pm
The thing that confuses me is the pictures I have of 3f's the h/rail down the side of the boiler looks very large compared to the ones on the cab.
That's because on one side it's not a handrail!  ;)
On the driver's side of the loco you have the ejector pipe running along the side of the boiler (it should end in a junction with a vertical pipe running down to the footplate). There is a normal sized handrail in the equivalent position on the fireman's side.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Vanders on December 08, 2017, 09:36:02 pm
Compare the price £2.20 for 480mm (4 pieces at 120mm) against £1 for 9M ;   9M/480mm = 18.75  so £2.20 * 18.75 =  £41.25.
I rest my case.
Sure but how many handrails are you planning to make?
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Dorsetmike on December 08, 2017, 10:11:24 pm
Plenty of uses for thin wire, I've never filed off cast hand rails in over 40 years of N gauge; if a new loco already has hand rails that's OK, but fiddling with hand rail knobs and wire is not my scene.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 20, 2017, 12:11:23 am
Like I have said previously I am planning on detailing my Union Mills 3f,and also plan to renumber some of my other locos. I have bought numbers from Fox Transfers 8" and 9" numbers plus early lions. The lions look small compared to the ones already on, maybe I have bought the wrong lions, what date did the lion emblem change. Also any tips on fitting the seperate numbers onto the loco cabside and getting them straight, I have noticed in the leaflet they sent me they do sets of numbers, that might be a easier option. I know it is advisable to have a gloss finish too put the transfers onto, I have not done any transfers for years since I built the old plastic kits.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Newportnobby on December 20, 2017, 09:52:56 am
I reckon the likes of @Atso (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=213) @Dr Al (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=263) @Ozymandias (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3534) are the guys likely to help with renumbering
(apologies to anyone missed)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Dr Al on December 20, 2017, 11:45:07 am
The lions look small compared to the ones already on, maybe I have bought the wrong lions, what date did the lion emblem change.

The UM crests are far too large, so you likely have the correct ones. Look at prototype pictures (generally lots on Flickr that google image search doesn't find).

The crest changed to the latter style in 1957, though lots of the earlier style were seen later than this (particularly on lesser locos) as they weren't changed until a loco was shopped and needed a repaint. Some locos never got the later crest, so prototype photos are again invaluable.

Also any tips on fitting the seperate numbers onto the loco cabside and getting them straight, I have noticed in the leaflet they sent me they do sets of numbers, that might be a easier option. I know it is advisable to have a gloss finish too put the transfers onto, I have not done any transfers for years since I built the old plastic kits.

Yes, better to gloss the surface, then seal in the desired finish (normally matt for a freight loco like 3F). If patch painting the cabsides only then it's probably wise to gently sand the area flush with a fibreglass pencil to ensure the area is smooth, and the raised original printing isn't seen through the overcoat.

In terms of alignment, you can use a piece of masking tape to provide a bottom line to align the decals along. Also, start with the middle numeral of the 5 and work outwards to get the lateral positioning correct.

Usually 9" is the correct size, some smaller tank locos used 8", and some larger locos had 10" applied (and odd Scottish region depots applied 10" to everything).

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 20, 2017, 10:09:56 pm
Thanks Alan for your input, sounds like I have bought the correct ones then, most pics seem to show the early emblem, its hard to tell with the angle of the pics plus they look dirty. The loco of the number I am using is from Trafford Park Manchester, and was actually withdrawn in 1960 so it will be ok for me. I have pics in a book of loco's seen in the Bury area, unfortunately the only 3F's were actually old class 27 L & Y engines, lots of 4F's and 2Mt's. There is a pic of a immaculate 2mt taken in 1957 with its early emblem, unfortunately the 4fs etc you could not tell from the pics what emblem they had. A bit of modelers licence Is called for I think, thanks again. Thanks for the tip of looking on Flickr I will look on there too.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on December 28, 2017, 11:46:54 pm
I have made a start on my 3F, not sure if to replace the injector pipe down the side of the boiler with a piece of wire a touch larger than the handrails, I do not want it looking better on one side than the other. I intend to try to fabricate some sort of reverse lever probably out of some leftover brass etch or maybe styrene. I hope to try and fit D&G couplings at the same time. Pics to follow eventually.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 04, 2018, 11:12:28 pm
These are pics of my detailing work on my Union Mills 3f. Not sure about the injector pipe, if I have made it a touch to large. The handrails and chimney are N-Brass bits, I intend to fit lamp irons and more handrails to the cab yet, also coal rails to the tender. I might make a shorter link out of some styrene to bring the tender closer to the loco. Not sure what paint to use yet on the finish, I know it should be matt black but enamel or acrylic, I have a airbrush. Any advice on painting will be appreciated.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/59/1784-301217231435.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/59/1784-301217231600.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-030118222731.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-040118225704.jpeg)

The Loco is fitted with a CT decoder and I intend to fit D&G couplings. I have made one coupling which fits into the Union Mills coupling box, I will try holding it in place with the spring or I may pack the box with styrene, I will see which works the best.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Ricardus Harfelde on January 05, 2018, 12:02:10 am

My interpretation of drawings in "Midland Engines: the Class 3 Belpaire Goods engines" by Hunt, Essery & James is that they give a bore for the injector pipe of 2 1/4 in with the outside diameter seeming to be about about 2 1/2 in

Richard
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 05, 2018, 12:30:00 am
Thanks Richard, I have used 0.5mm brass rod, looking back at previous posts it should be ok then. The N-Brass ones are small, someone said I could use 0.3mm for handrails thats why I have used 0.5mm. I also tried to thin it down at the front because it looks slightly smaller on one of my refference pics. Once its painted it will not stand out so much.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: PLD on January 05, 2018, 07:48:35 am
I also tried to thin it down at the front because it looks slightly smaller on one of my refference pics.
The injector pipe should end approx mid way along the smokebox. Some locos had a short section of handrail ahead of this (this will be the "smaller section" in your pic) others had nothing.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 05, 2018, 10:16:37 am
Thanks for the information guys,must admit I am finding this hard work but very satisfying.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 13, 2018, 11:34:13 pm
This is the latest pic of work on my Union Mills 3f, the rear h/rail looks a little out, it had moved slightly so corrected that since the pic. Work on the tender next, fitting the coal rails, the n-brass ones look a little bit different but I am confident I can make them look right. I am also thinking of fitting hand rails to the tender, i want to remove has little metal has possible from the tender so I do not effect the good running.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-130118230649.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 17, 2018, 03:51:06 pm
A lot of work on the loco and the tender. I have fitted coal rails,hand rails,and lamp brackets to the tender. The loco has the handrails plus to the boiler and cab plus lamp brkts. Some of the lamp brackets are N brass and some are made from staples after taking Alanís advice, has it happens I have one of those small staplers, they are a nice size. Ready for painting now,pics to follow.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 17, 2018, 10:21:54 pm
A few pics showing the model ready for the paint shop.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-170118221737.jpeg)
her is a pic of the 3f from the rear, not sure if there should be a coal rail across the rear in front of the water section. I can add them if there should be, but I have no pics for me to check.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-170118221948.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Newportnobby on January 18, 2018, 10:06:15 am
There are no clear pics of the real thing here, but several models seem to have no rail at the back of the tender so yours looks quite right if we assume everyone else has got it right :hmmm:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lms+class+3f+0+6+0+tender+locomotive&client=opera&hs=u5o&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9z6L5oOHYAhXKDMAKHUk9CpUQ7AkIPg&biw=1366&bih=658 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lms+class+3f+0+6+0+tender+locomotive&client=opera&hs=u5o&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9z6L5oOHYAhXKDMAKHUk9CpUQ7AkIPg&biw=1366&bih=658)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 18, 2018, 08:17:35 pm
Thanks Mick, my reference pic's shows a solid rail at the front of the tender so that is what I have done. More work  painting a coat of primer, which also highlighted the fault on the side of the tender, so a bit more work required there. Otherwise it's order a new tender body from Union Mills, I feel its getting there slowly. I have done more work since these pics so it looks even better.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-180118201508.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-180118201710.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Rowlie on January 20, 2018, 10:19:20 pm
You are doing a really nice job of the detailing.  If you have got access to vol 1 of illustrated review of midland engines (Jenkinson and Essery), page 77 plates 123 and 124 have detail views of the top of a Johnson tender (3250 gal). There is no coal rail in front of the water section, there is a small bulkhead (extends to half height of the curved section) which the authors say wasnít very good at restraining coal.  Some tenders did have all round coal rails, but the authors say there isnít information to indicate how many tenders were fitted out this way (page 85 plate 132).  Hope this helps
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 20, 2018, 10:57:18 pm
Thanks for the information @Rowlie (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=723) , I do not have that book, I will have to keep a eye out for that in the future. I think I am happy with what I have done, I am almost ready now for the next coat of paint, trouble is I have been watching the snooker. Pics to follow when I have painted the black coat.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Rowlie on January 20, 2018, 11:30:48 pm
Looking forward to seeing the next set of pictures, you have captured it well. 
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 21, 2018, 07:45:10 pm
Well tonight I managed to find time to give the model a coat of Humbrol Coalblack, leave it to dry for a couple of days now and see how it looks then.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-210118194416.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 22, 2018, 11:14:00 pm
A few more pics of my Union mills after painting. The loco looks ok but I was still not happy with the sides of the tender. So I sprayed some Halfords primer into a jar then transferred it to the airbrush where I could re-paint the sides of the tender.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-220118231004.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-220118231154.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-220118231319.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Hailstone on January 23, 2018, 02:05:00 pm
If it is any help, I have used Halfords satin black aerosol cans with complete confidence for some years now, and it is also perfect to place transfers on, after which I then spray the whole loco with Testors dullcote if I want a matt finish

Regards,

Alex 
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 23, 2018, 03:38:03 pm
Thanks for the tip Alex, I used a halfords spray can with the first layer of undercoat. I thought it might be too thick for the airbrush but it was ok. You have so much more control spraying with the airbrush,has you can see I touched up the side easy were I had sanded it down again to the metal.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 23, 2018, 04:12:25 pm
@Rowlie (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=723) hi there i managed to get a copy ot the book from Bill Hudson books,it was a good price ordered Sat  and delivered today so good service.
I intend finishing the painting tonight,another coat on the engine and finish the tender,pics to follow.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 23, 2018, 08:21:05 pm
More work on my Union Mills, another coat of paint, plus I have sorted the problems with the tender. I will leave it to dry for a few days now with it being Humbrol enamel paint.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-230118201846.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Train Waiting on January 23, 2018, 09:03:28 pm
This looks very good indeed, Chris.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Rowlie on January 23, 2018, 09:33:10 pm
Hi Chris, your modifications are looking good.  Iím glad you managed to get a copy of the book, that was very good service by Bill Hudson.
Look forward to seeing the next instalment.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 23, 2018, 09:46:00 pm
Thanks for the kind comments, I see from the book I have bought that the tenders had a brake standoff on one side of the front of the tender. I bought some of those off N-Brass but was not sure of the fitment, it looks like one was fitted to the tender. I also have vaccum pipes to fit and I am expecting a number plate and shed code etch to arrive anytime soon. Then it is a matter of fitting the decals to the loco and tender, and some real coal on the top of the tender. It should look good then.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 24, 2018, 10:04:26 pm
Here are a couple of pics showing my Union Mills 3f, after a second coat of matt paint. It looks a bit shiny but I will fix the decals in place then coat it with matt varnish.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-240118220024.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1784-240118220122.jpeg)

I will leave the paint to harden I think for a couple of days at least.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 27, 2018, 10:29:08 pm
Just found out why it looks shiny, I picked up the wrong tin of paint, 21 instead of 85, hopefully matt varnish will sort it. I will test it first on something or another another coat but this time the correct paint.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 28, 2018, 10:07:49 pm
I made the decision to paint the loco with matt black after masking where the decals will go. I will give it a coat of varnish after fitting the decals.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/1784-280118220355.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Dr Al on January 28, 2018, 10:56:14 pm
It is best to wait until transfers are applied, then matt coat the full model - the risk no is that there'll be a line around the transfers, or the transfered area will be less matt than the rest.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on January 28, 2018, 11:40:56 pm
Yes thanks Alan, I have only give it a light coat where the decals go, I made the masking tape has small has possible. The cab sides should be ok because i more or less masked the whole of the cab side. The tender was more difficult to mask, it looks ok at the moment. I will let the paint dry then give it a close inspection, I might have to feather it slightly. Thats the beauty of the airbrush with thinned paint the layers are so thin.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on February 03, 2018, 07:47:11 pm
I have given the loco its Fox decals and a coat of Phoenix matt varnish. It still needs real coal in the tender and some slight weathering and of course the crew back in the cab.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/1784-030218194350.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Rowlie on February 03, 2018, 07:56:46 pm
Hi Chris, you have done a great job with the detailing.
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on February 07, 2018, 10:45:34 pm
Here is a couple of pics of My Union Mills 3f re united with the tender. I might give the model another coat of matt varnish to seal the weathering.I have used various paints,enamel and acrylics. The loco is based o  how she would have looked in the 60's before she was withdrawn.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/1784-070218224034.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/1784-070218223849.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Newportnobby on February 08, 2018, 11:09:05 am
Very nice indeed, Chris. Just bring it along to the Preston Show and I'll mug you for it >:D >:D ;)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on February 11, 2018, 10:28:44 pm
Well I have finished my Union Mills 3f at last, couplings fitted and vacuum pipes added.Here is a pic of her going round the cutting on my layout.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/1784-110218222545.jpeg)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: Newportnobby on February 12, 2018, 10:17:28 am
Just a suggestion, Chris, but how about toning down the connecting rods (I've used a black permanent marker pen for this before). I'm still going to mug you for it >:D ;)
Title: Re: Detailing 3f and 4f locos
Post by: lil chris on February 12, 2018, 10:23:51 am
Thanks Mick, I have actually toned them down with some oily paint perhaps it needs a touch more.