Should we run prototypical trains?

[Steven B]

My view is that keeping things moving is the most important thing for an exhibition layout but I do like to see trains that are reasonably correct at exhibitions. There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.

If you're at home then anything goes. If you're exhibiting then I think you should make more of an effort to model the trains more accurately. Where you do model the more unusual take some photos to prove what you've modelled.
For example:
Blue loco on crimson & cream Mk1s
or
steam loco next to blue/grey DMU, with second in background (about two-thirds down the page).

Happy modelling,

Steven B.

[Lazy-Ferret]

I think a lot of people get "Train Spotting" mixed up with "model railways"...

It's a hobby, for fun... if you want real life trains, then go and look at the real railways... Even then the thing is, in real life you might, once in a blue moon see old trucks being moved by a more modern train, even if it is just to take them to the breakers...

The idea of a model exhibition is to show off the modellers expertise at being able to reproduce something that is pleasing and entertaining, in a reduced scale... for the entertainment of a group of people who like to see toy trains running round a realistic looking track, and raise some funds for some suitable cause.

While there are many on here that may be able to list off all the "Real life" train and rolling stock combinations, and which trains did and did not go with what, a lot of us do not have the faintest idea, and more importantly, even more people who will be paying to come into the exhibition, to entertain the kids on a weekend, will definitely not have one iota.. They just want to see a nice looking train pulling some carriages, along a nice bit of track, and don't have the slightest worry about what colours or shapes they are.

I can remember as a kid, when we went to an exhibition, spending most of my time looking for the little hidden delights, like the lady sun bathing nude on the roof, and the fire men all using binoculars to look at her, instead of fighting the fire... the hotel that when you looked through one of the windows, the bed covers were moving up and down, the "A team" in barn behind a farm welding up a tank, Waldo sitting on a bench in a station and several people pointing to him. They are my memories, the trains that were running round it were just the icing on the cake.

The only trains I really remember were the ones where a guy had these fantastic little brass trains, and all the drive shafts turned, or the pump truck where the little people seemed to be actually powering it, or the totally un-prototypical Thomas the tank engine pulling a load of trucks with Tanks, search lights, missiles, and helicopters on them.

So personally I feel the average "non-train spotter" person paying for them and their family to go in to a model show, will want to see things moving and looking good, and want to see details and things they will remember, not worrying if one set of trucks does not have the right coloured wheels for the loco pulling it...

[Chris Morris]

Thanks for all the interesting and useful responses.
My new N gauge layout is a caricature of Aller Junction in the early to mid 1960s and all my stock fits this location and period. There is still a problem in that a lot was changing during that time. This scene is fine for 1962/3 but there were very few steam workings after 1963 and pretty much every diesel had a yellow warning panel by the end of 1963. Western Enterprise was painted Maroon in 1964.




But I also want to run this - a livery that did not appear until well into 1965.





And this - the full yellow front did not appear until 1967.




So bearing in mind that this is a reasonably serious attempt to capture a real place at a fairly specific period in time, do fellow forum members think I should:-
1. just run them all at the same time and not care
2. run them but make sure they don't appear "on stage" at the same time
3.  not allow these items to be on the layout even in the storage lines at the same time at all?

I'm thinking option 2 is best but it would be interesting to hear others views.

[Stevie DC]

So bearing in mind that this is a reasonably serious attempt to capture a real place at a fairly specific period in time, do fellow forum members think I should:-
1. just run them all at the same time and not care
2. run them but make sure they don't appear "on stage" at the same time
3.  not allow these items to be on the layout even in the storage lines at the same time at all?

I'm thinking option 2 is best but it would be interesting to hear others views.

I think you're right to go for options one and/or two. My own modelling period is fairly fluid being from 1929 to 1939, this is to allow me to model a range of locomotives and liveries that would never have been seen together. For example the Q2 and Raven A2 would have both been long withdrawn by 1939 and the lovely D2s and D11s were all supposed to be painted in lined black after 1928 (although I have photographic evidence of green examples lasting until at least 1930). Personally, as my layout will not be for exhibition use, I'm happy to run them all at the same time but mainly sticking to prototypical trains for the time period the locomotive represents - I believe that the late David Jenkins referred to such formations as 'funny trains'. Luckily for me much of the stock I plan to model will be appropriate for most periods. There will be some stock that won't be appropriate; things like the Chivers CCT kit would be wrong behind anything not appropriate to late 1939.

Even a prototypical layout such as Copenhagen Fields utilises a wide variety of stock from different time periods, from pre-grouping days to the late 1930s, and you can often see these running at the same time during exhibitions (although hauling prototypical trains for the locomotive).

At the end of the day it's your layout and rule one can always apply! 

[daffy]

Chris, I think you have answered your own question here. What anyone else thinks or may comment upon is rather academic, and as this thread proves we all have our own individual viewpoints which may or may not agree with your own.

You are obviously happiest with your option 2, so go with your heart and be true to the concept of your creation - which is superb btw - upon which you, and only you, set the rules.

And as a matter of interest, I agree with your option 2 - flexibility without being either overly stringent or lackadaisical.

[oreamnos]

Interesting discussion.

I live in California and exhibitions here not nearly as frequent as in the UK and the layouts are also almost exclusively giant modular layouts of varying quality and - when the modules are assembled together - of varying homogeneity.  The club I belong to is one of the better ones with most modules depict the scenery of the US pacific northwest.  It's not common to see a 16'x36' N scale layout where all the modules look all right next to each other, but for the most part ours does.

And yet since I run only British outline, my stock is grossly out of place.  I don't care, however, and to be honest the feedback I've gotten from the paying public is they are curious about what the heck I'm running since they've never seen a Western before (for example).

I could run a single HST power car pulling Mk1 coaches over here if I wanted and even my fellow club members would have no idea that such a consist was wrong.  But I don't.  I do my best to make any formation I run correct, and my usual method is to assemble what I've got on track match a picture of an actual revenue earning train.

We had a former club member who liked to attach 60 cabooses (of different roads) behind a Union Pacific DD40AX Centennial with a boxcar on the very back.  Amusing, sure, but I have to admit I really thought it was dumb.

Matt

[JasonBz]

Referencing Chris's question re Aller Junction.
I would definately go with Option 2 - I would fret far less about time than I ever would about place, witihn a few years anyway.

[PLD]

The idea of a model exhibition is to show off the modellers expertise at being able to reproduce something that is pleasing and entertaining, in a reduced scale... for the entertainment of a group of people who like to see toy trains running round a realistic looking track, and raise some funds for some suitable cause.

That rather depends on the aims and philosophy of the exhibition organisers - the purpose of the show can be any or all of Entertain, Educate, Inform and Inspire in varying proportions.
For some shows your 'Run Anything' policy and liking of novelties is perfect, at others, prototype fidelity is the order of the day - you pays your money, and make your choice of which shows to visit but shouldn't deny others their (different) choice...

While there are many on here that may be able to list off all the "Real life" train and rolling stock combinations, and which trains did and did not go with what, a lot of us do not have the faintest idea, and more importantly, even more people who will be paying to come into the exhibition, to entertain the kids on a weekend, will definitely not have one iota.. They just want to see a nice looking train pulling some carriages, along a nice bit of track, and don't have the slightest worry about what colours or shapes they are.

As with some previous comments, that reads as though you see 'prototypical fidelity' and 'being entertaining' as mutually exclusive. I don't see why a layout can't be both. Why can the correct matching stock not be as interesting as a random mix? Why not run the appropriate combination of stock in an entertaining manner - surely that is the best of both worlds and will appeal to both ends of the spectrum?

[PLD]

Thanks for all the interesting and useful responses.
My new N gauge layout is a caricature of Aller Junction in the early to mid 1960s and all my stock fits this location and period. There is still a problem in that a lot was changing during that time. This scene is fine for 1962/3 but there were very few steam workings after 1963 and pretty much every diesel had a yellow warning panel by the end of 1963. Western Enterprise

But I also want to run this - a livery that did not appear until well into 1965.

And this - the full yellow front did not appear until 1967.

So bearing in mind that this is a reasonably serious attempt to capture a real place at a fairly specific period in time, do fellow forum members think I should:-
1. just run them all at the same time and not care
2. run them but make sure they don't appear "on stage" at the same time
3.  not allow these items to be on the layout even in the storage lines at the same time at all?

I'm thinking option 2 is best but it would be interesting to hear others views.

I also would favour option 2. If all the stock is appropriate for the location, only the most pedantic would quibble at at a 5 years or so time span.

If you are really clever and put some thought in to it you could even organise a sequence so that the trains run in historical order. I've seen it done a few times and could be very interesting if it covers a period in which there were significant changes of livery, motive power or traffic.

[CaleyDave]

Perhaps the most important thing is how you describe your layout.

Using a GWR layout  above as inspiration for the example. 


If you say your GWR layout is set between 1950 and 1970 then why is anyone complaining if two trains which wouldn't have been seen together are seen together if they fit that description. Most people only have two track so if they want to keep it looking realistic the have a rough idea of which trains belong to which timescale and don't run those from the extremes together like others have said. If someone is complaining about that level of detail I would guess that are either tiring to be helpful and suggest corrections to you or are not your friend.

Alternatively if your GWR 1950-1970's layout has London underground stock alongside Eurostars and American diesels then why did you specify that it was a GWR 1950-1970's layout?
(There are of course exceptions. 
Running a Thomas around when the kids are watching tends to be a crowd pleaser and show, in my eyes, that the operators are aware of who is watching and want to put on a show and entertain.)
However if you said it was a layout based on a 1960's GWR station running anything and everything then why are people complaining.

---
With rearguard to length, if it looks right... We cant all have big layouts and don't all want branch lines. Keeping some basic logic, expresses are longer than locals, works fine. I would rather see a range of different types of coaches or wagons pass than wait 10 minutes for a mega train of coal hoppers to crawl past.
Which leads me to agree with others that something going on is important. I have no time for realistic timetables where a train only appears every 15min. 
---

My end goal is along way off to go to an exhibition with my layout.
I will admit to being quite picky and strict however the way I see it if I was to go tomorrow;
If some one makes a request I will try to accommodate it.
I want a few trains out of my era such as the prototype HST and scotrail push pull set so of course I am going to run them to show them off from time to time. (If my plans to butcher mk3 Kitchen cars work out there will be a few out of era trains being run around by me with a big grin on my face.)
A couple of the people I would ask to be operators are into N Gauge and I would consider it poor form (and hypocritical if I am showing off my specials) not to let them run some of their trains even if they are completely out of era and style. If they are helping run the layout the least I can do is let them run something they want.

What I would do however is write in the description that there are some visiting models as a get out clause to point any one who wants to be picky.

[acko22]

CaleyDave,

Makes a great assessment of it above my final thoughts on this are:

You cant please everyone but if you can please more than you don't then its a good start point.
Who do you want to please? Personally if I had a choice between a 5 year old and a grumpy rivet counter I know where my efforts would go!
And the one which is the reason we do this hobby is what pleasures you? If been a prototypical as possible is your thing then great but if you want to run other things and make it a mix then what's the problem.

[Ditape]

I favour running regional stock,over a wide time period,on a layout loosely based on a real location but Rule 1 applies so I will run what ever takes my fancy at times.

[railsquid]

We had a former club member who liked to attach 60 cabooses (of different roads) behind a Union Pacific DD40AX Centennial with a boxcar on the very back.  Amusing, sure, but I have to admit I really thought it was dumb.

And if I saw that I would think "ooooh American Train, big loco, Union Pacific, I like the colour" and enjoy watching it trundle by

[violets49]

Yes. Theres no excuse now with all the stock thats available. It was different in the days when all ye got was a brake third and a Composite.

[alibuchan]

I prefer seeing things as they should be, there is one layout that really bugs me on the circuit, a large 00 terminus station where you can see, Chiltern, First Great Western, northern, scotrail, Anglia One, London Midland, cross country and Arriva trains Wales liveried DMUs in there. If they picked a couple of similarly located companies the layout would go from a 4/10 to a 8/10. Then you see layouts like Banbury which is pretty much spot on.

I have been known to search for pictures of weird combinations in the approximate area to our layout and have modelled them. That way when people complain you can show them the picture and prove them wrong!

If at home you want to run a deltic on a rake of milk tanks or a steam loco on a train of Mk 3, go for it.

I'm not going to be happy paying £10 to see a 'trainset layout' type layout at a show. I want to get some inspiration when I go to a show, I have done the 'trainset' layout and want to move on from it. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that's the way I feel.

Keeping something running is the most important thing about exhibiting. People will generally stand watching a layout for between 3-5 minutes. If they like it they will come back and spend another 10+ minutes looking at the details and all of those hidden bits, at bigger shows who have regularly 3-4 deep because we always try and keep something moving, even if it is just a 153 going down the branch because something has gone wrong on 1 (or usually all of) the mainlines. Being able to run a full 16 coach sleeper is a help as it keeps the kids amused trying to count them as it goes flying past.

Alistair