!!

Not Registered?

Welcome!  Please register to view all of the new posts and forum boards - some of which are hidden to guests.  After registering and gaining 10 posts you will be able to sell and buy items on our N'porium.

If you have any problems registering, then please check your spam filter before emailing us.  Hotmail users seem to find their emails in the Junk folder.


Thanks for reading,
The NGF Staff.

Author Topic: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases  (Read 648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GroupC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 480
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« on: April 09, 2018, 12:06:06 pm »
As people reading this (who are therefore, I would expect, into F1 in some way) will know, in yesterday's race a Ferrari mechanic sustained a broken leg when Raikkonen ran over him having being released from his pitstop too early. In the first race both Haas cars retired after pitstop issues.

That's 3 unsafe releases in 2 races (that we know about). Over the total number of pitstops this is a small number, but it's often been a feature, an to my mind an unwelcome one, in influencing race results in previous seasons - it's an instant retirement.

What's the feeling here? Clearly someone has made a mistake at some point in each case, so it's "human error", but with tyres being changed in an unbelievably short amount of time the chance of a mistake is I believe increased. More haste less speed perhaps. Is it time to have a minimum pit stop time? Or a maximum number of mechanics per car (as in the WEC)? Or just leave it to the teams to ensure it doesn't keep happening and keep fining them when it does?

I don't have an axe to grind and don't really favour any team or driver, but I think it's a shame when a driver retires when this happens. And if people are getting hurt I think it needs to be looked at.

Online njee20

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 22598
  • Posts: 3732
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 01:04:52 pm »
The Raikkonen incident was certainly nasty 1) because the mechanic was injured and 2) because it wasn't even marginal - they'd not got the wheel off - no one could have possibly said that car was safe to release. The Haas ones in Oz were mechanics declaring the car 'safe', only to change their mind (admittedly nearly instantly).

The speed of pitstops is astounding now, I know it slowed down last year with heavier wheels, but Williams got under 2 seconds for an in-race pitstop. To change all 4 wheels that's truly phenomenal. It's no surprise that with that we're seeing some errors with that sort of speed. As to how you stop it, or improve safety... no idea. There will always be a level of risk inherent I guess.

Offline MJKERR

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: X23832
  • Posts: 1502
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 01:20:06 pm »
Any time people are near vehicles there is a risk of injury

In this case the vehicle was declared safe to leave, the driver given that signal, as the wheel gun had been applied to the wheel and then released
Other teams have corrected this issue whereby the mechanic releases a button, to confirm the wheel change is complete

As for the retirement that was inevitable as the car had to be pushed back, the wheels rematched and the driver knew by the time that had been completed he would be in last place
To go from third to last, there is no point going back out with one third of the race remaining
There would also be a penalty for completing a pit stop with incorrect tyres, even though the car was still in the pit lane
This penalty will now be applied at the next race

Online njee20

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 22598
  • Posts: 3732
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 01:36:28 pm »
As for the retirement that was inevitable as the car had to be pushed back, the wheels rematched and the driver knew by the time that had been completed he would be in last place
To go from third to last, there is no point going back out with one third of the race remaining
There would also be a penalty for completing a pit stop with incorrect tyres, even though the car was still in the pit lane
This penalty will now be applied at the next race

Not sure that's true - Bottas (in his Williams days) ended up with mismatched tyres at Spa in 2015. He was given a drive through penalty, but stayed out on the mismatched tyres. Had Kimi just driven off with mismatched tyres (with no associated personnel injury) I imagine he'd have either pitted again, or stayed out and taken a penalty on the chin. I can't imagine they'd ever have wheeled the car back down the pit lane to resolve it, as that would be more dangerous.

You talk as if you know definitively he's getting a penalty at the next race? Seems they've been fined €50,000, but I've seen no mention of that, and why would they issue a grid penalty purely for the mismatched tyres?

Mismatched Williams:

Offline Zwilnik

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19730
  • Posts: 1779
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 01:40:18 pm »
I had a few thoughts on this during the race after the event, although all of them are likely to slow pitstops down at least fractionally.

The simplest (and probably safest) solution is to make all pitstops 5 seconds minimum. So no matter how fast your tyre change is, you still have to wait until the car's been stopped for 5 seconds. This would make stops quite a bit safer as it's more about optimising the change to within the 5 seconds limit rather than trying to get it down to 1 second. That means you can do better visual checks etc. Downside of course is that it reduces the excitement of the stop a little and a quick pitstop doesn't give you a race advantage.

Another option is to change the procedure so there's a definite multi-stage positive action to ok the release and that can't be overridden. For instance every jack man has to press a button to confirm done and their second (ie the tyre putting on guy) *also* has to confirm. When all 4 wheels are confirmed *then* you get the option to green light. There's still the capability for a mistake (if you train everyone to do a task as super high speed, muscle memory kicks in and automatically presses the ok button), but you could do an automatic 1 second delay for the confirmation in which it can be cancelled.
Upside, potentially safer. Downside, slower stops again, but not as bad as a 5 second minimum. It would also probably require a rule change to have standard systems.

As to the penalty, it's entirely likely the stewards would have black flagged the car and disqualified Kimi, as well as penalising Ferrari a lot more heavily as you're meant to immediately stop the car after an unsafe release (Haas got reduced fines in Australia as they did just that). So leaving the car out would have probably been a lot worse for them.

Offline MJKERR

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: X23832
  • Posts: 1502
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 07:06:35 pm »
You talk as if you know definitively he's getting a penalty at the next race? Seems they've been fined €50,000, but I've seen no mention of that, and why would they issue a grid penalty purely for the mismatched tyres?
Advised during the race the incident would be investigated at the end of the race
Fine / Penalty, action has been taken

Had the car left the pit stop, which it did, then penalty is applied (that's the regulations)
The team noticed the issue, told the driver to stop, and the plan was to push the car back to pitstop
Had the car returned to the race then a penalty would have applied, but it will now be applied at next race
As a drive through penalty cannot be applied a minimum 5 place grid penalty may be applied
A decision needs to be taken by Thursday

Online bridgiesimon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 12318
  • Posts: 772
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 07:22:37 pm »
I agree though, it was a terrible situation, They really need to sort this out to ensure that the risk of it happening again is limited. I understand that there will always be the risk but when a car leaves without one wheel having even been removed let alone changed, something is seriously wrong. Why did they stock using the lollipop man? Am sure such an individual would not have let Kimi leave when he did.

Marred a good race full of great racing on the track, two races in a row where controversy in the pits seriously affected the result!

I really hope they get it sorted and soon!

PS and BRING BACK THE GRID GIRLS - I miss them hehe!

Best wishes
Simon

Online themadhippy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 07:53:16 pm »
Quote
Why did they stock using the lollipop man? Am sure such an individual would not have let Kimi leave when he did.

Quote
PS and BRING BACK THE GRID GIRLS
combine the 2 and introduce lollipop girls then no one would be in a hurry to leave the pits

Online bridgiesimon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 12318
  • Posts: 772
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2018, 08:36:29 pm »
Love it!!

Best wishes
Simon

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+63)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 29343
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 09:46:05 pm »
Sorry, but for me a huge portion of interest in F1 disappeared when refuelling was discontinued. Sure, it was dangerous, but it added an enormous tactical element to the racing which I believe is missing nowadays. I still watch every race but not with the same anticipation I used to get :(

Online javlinfaw7

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23283
  • Posts: 534
  • Country: scotland
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 09:50:23 pm »
Could they not just run it on simulators ,would be a lot safer

Online Skyline2uk

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1798
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • Lets preserve at least one HST.....
    • My home layout thread, Filton TMD
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 09:51:47 pm »
I haven’t watched any F1 in a while, it doesn’t really grab me these days (silly noises as well).

However, pit stop safety (or lack thereof) has always been a talking point, but remember they no longer refuel mid race.

How can forget the incidents with refuelling down the years? Ferrari (Kimi?) dragging a refuelling hose down the pits, and rather less amusing, a massive fireball at Benetton (1994?).

Skyline2uk

Offline MalcolmAL

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2174
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 10:36:55 pm »
I lost a lot of interest in it when they nolonger had to run across the track to jump in their motors at the start :(

I did watch some for a while after, but stopped when they fitted planks underneath. why not a ball&chain as well ?

I thought they had re-introduced fueling ? Must ask swmbo, she watches every one still.

Online bridgiesimon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 12318
  • Posts: 772
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2018, 11:00:22 pm »
not had refuelling at pit stops for many year, way too dangerous.

Twas 1994 and it was Max Verstappen's Dad Jos at Hockenheim -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6pNb5kAoXw

I much prefer racing where it is all about the drivers competing on the track not strategies and pit stop overtakes - result is boring!

Best wishes
Simon

Offline MalcolmAL

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2174
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: F1 pitstops and unsafe releases
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2018, 11:16:12 pm »
I've been doing some reading ! and assuming my eyes didnt get xxed it seems that re-fuelling was banned in 1984 but reintroduced in 1994 which is the sequence I remembered but not the dates.

Then it was banned again in/since 2010, which goes to show just how long it has been (8years, how time flies) since I paid it any attention !

The interesting years were approx S.Moss,  Hailwood, Hill(sn) Stewart and a few others in no particular order. Boring ever since :(

 

Please Support Us!
September Goal: £55.00
Due Date: Sep 30
Total Receipts: £55.00
Below Goal: £0.00
Site Currency: GBP
100% 
September Donations


Advertise Here