N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: njee20 on May 15, 2018, 01:38:26 pm

Title: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: njee20 on May 15, 2018, 01:38:26 pm
I've often noticed Modellbahn Union's "silver bullet" china clay tankers on their site, here (https://www.en.dm-toys.de/liste/search/silver%20bullet.html). They bear a stunning resemblance to Dapol's:

MU:
(https://www.en.dm-toys.de/system/html/MU-N-G32028-bd201f37.jpg)

Dapol:
(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/NB074F_27862_Qty1_1.jpg)

Now the MU ones claim to be 1:160, but say they have length over buffers of 98mm. Taking this photo from Hattons of the Dapol one:

(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/NB074F_27862_Qty1_ruler.jpg)

Looks bloody close to 98mm, and if the 1:160 ones were 98mm the Dapol ones should be 106mm, which they're definitely not. Conversely if the 1:148 ones are 98mm then the 1:160 ones should be 91mm, which they may be, and the website is wrong :hmmm:

The MU ones say they come with 'optional knuckle couplers' just like the Dapol ones. They do do some liveries which Dapol never have, which is curious. But most are the same, and obviously the weathering, based on a Mercig master, looks as good as identical.

Are they the same wagon, and actually a 1:148 model? Tempted to supplement my rake of Dapol ones, although they're a little expensive they're still coming out about the same as the Dapol ones sell for here. With the advantage they're available now!

Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Steven B on May 15, 2018, 01:52:58 pm
Yes they're the same wagon.

Dapol have produced a number of limited editions for Modellbahn Union including A4s and Class 58 (ACTS)

Steven B.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: njee20 on May 15, 2018, 02:06:38 pm
Awesome, ta. Was aware of the A4 etc, but those are so obviously a British prototype I wasn't totally sure about the wagons. I imagine they'd be rather overscale on a continental layout, particularly as they're marketed as 1:160, and clearly aren't.

Still, happy days. A source of weathered silver bullets in Nacco and ECC livery.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: ntpntpntp on May 15, 2018, 04:32:43 pm
... I imagine they'd be rather overscale on a continental layout, particularly as they're marketed as 1:160, and clearly aren't.

True but on the other hand they'll be models of stock built to British loading gauge so shouldn't look too tall among larger loading gauge continental wagons.  Would only really show up where you have british and continental scale models of the same wagon next to each other
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: njee20 on May 15, 2018, 05:00:15 pm
True, which was exactly what I was keen to avoid given I'd be mixing them among a rake.

It's all pretty moot anyway, not sure I'm sufficiently bothered yet to pay £30 each.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Western Exile on August 28, 2018, 02:21:23 pm
Some time ago I asked on here whether anyone had taken a Dapol silver bullet apart as I was interested in doing so to paint the barrel blue, as some of the prototype were this colour. Looks like I donít need to now as the retailer linked in the first post is now offering them for sale in this livery, weathered and pristine versions.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: njee20 on August 28, 2018, 02:27:11 pm
Yep, I saw that, including NACCO branded weathered ones. I suspect I'll succumb to a few to replace the ERMEWA ones I've got, even at £32 a pop.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Western Exile on August 28, 2018, 02:36:18 pm
When I spotted these on sale I thought I would post a question on here as I too noticed that they were shown as 1:160 but were exactly the same length as my Dapol ones. I did a quick search to see if anyone had asked the question already and lo and behold, you had. Thanks!
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: woodbury22uk on August 28, 2018, 02:45:51 pm
This a typical continental clay slurry wagon, which is much shorter than a British gauge wagon, with a similar payload. At 1/160 scale it would be about 80mm over buffers. Does not seem to bother the mainland European modellers who keep snapping up the overlength Dapol/Modellbahn Union ones.

http://www.atir-rail.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/craie45.pdf (http://www.atir-rail.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/craie45.pdf)


There are some depressed centre tanks too which are 12.5 metres over buffers so less than 80mm in 1/160:-

http://www.photos-ferroviaires.fr/index.php?/category/75 (http://www.photos-ferroviaires.fr/index.php?/category/75)

Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: njee20 on August 28, 2018, 02:56:38 pm
Well AFAIK the Silver Bullets as modelled by Dapol run through the Channel Tunnel and through France (at least), so they're not unprototypical for continental use, but would obviously be significantly over scale.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Buzzard on August 28, 2018, 04:47:11 pm
Some time ago I asked on here whether anyone had taken a Dapol silver bullet apart as I was interested in doing so to paint the barrel blue, as some of the prototype were this colour. Looks like I donít need to now as the retailer linked in the first post is now offering them for sale in this livery, weathered and pristine versions.

ECC had 5 in their house colour but those wagons were 14.1m long whereas the NACCO wagons, the ones we've traditionally called silver bullets, were 13.2m.

Don't know if the shorter ones ever got painted blue so perhaps some more research is called for i.e. don't buy too many blue ones.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Western Exile on August 28, 2018, 06:25:34 pm
Some time ago I asked on here whether anyone had taken a Dapol silver bullet apart as I was interested in doing so to paint the barrel blue, as some of the prototype were this colour. Looks like I donít need to now as the retailer linked in the first post is now offering them for sale in this livery, weathered and pristine versions.

ECC had 5 in their house colour but those wagons were 14.1m long whereas the NACCO wagons, the ones we've traditionally called silver bullets, were 13.2m.

Don't know if the shorter ones ever got painted blue so perhaps some more research is called for i.e. don't buy too many blue ones.

Too late! Iíve already ordered three blue ones and three Caledonian Paper ones.  I didnít know that the blue ones were a different build to the silver ones. However, on the grounds that I didnít notice a 90cm difference on the real thing, I think I can overlook a 6mm discrepancy on the model.  ;)
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Western Exile on August 30, 2018, 12:41:28 pm
All six arrived today and they are superb! Apart from the Modellbahn Union cardboard sleeve and sticker on the end of the box, the packaging is all Dapol and identical to their own Silver Bullets. According to the sticker, each type is a limited run of 200. It seems strange that Dapol havenít offered them in the UK as their own product given their widespread use.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: RailGooner on August 30, 2018, 01:02:24 pm
..
 I imagine they'd be rather overscale on a continental layout, particularly as they're marketed as 1:160, and clearly aren't.
...


Apologies njee20 for the ever so slight topic drift, but I think this still falls under 'Modellbahn Union Wagons' and is relevant to this discussion particularly regarding scale.

I have a dozen Modellbahn Union (MU) Shimms Tarpaulin Wagons, all manufactured by Dapol. I bought them intending to re-livery them as 'GE Capital Rail Services'. However, I've never been satisfied with how they look in a mixed train of Dapol KIA Telescoping Steel Carriers and Bachmann/Farish BRA Bogie Steel Carriers. The MU Shimms simply look too large.

I've recently purchased a pack of Fleischmann Shimms Tarpaulin Wagons, which look much better in a mixed train.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/5427-300818123144.jpeg)

Comparing the dimensions of the Modellbahn Union/Fleischmann models shows the most significant difference is in the width:
                                      MU / Fleischmann
Length over buffers  75.4mm / 75.0mm
Height from rail-top  27.2mm / 27.4mm
Width                      20.4mm / 19.6mm
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/5427-300818122935.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/5427-300818123025.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/5427-300818125615.jpeg)

So probably safe to say that the MU Shimms is 1:160 scale. The MU model has exquisite detail, but I'll be flogging them all now and replacing with Fleischmann.

Oh, and the prototype has two roof profiles which both have the same max height.
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: njee20 on August 30, 2018, 01:04:33 pm
So that's interesting, as it's actually the reverse - you think the smaller 1:160 wagons better match the UK 1:148 ones!
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: Bealman on August 30, 2018, 01:05:43 pm
A detailed reply. Thanks for posting!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: RailGooner on August 30, 2018, 01:13:10 pm
 :confused1: I know, crazy. I've never been able to find drawings of the prototypes. So I can't say whose model is more accurate in terms of scale dimensions. But to my eye, the MU just looks way too big.

Plus 'GE Capital Rail Services' Shimms livery is all-over blue, so the Fleischmann is an easier re-livery. :D
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: RailGooner on September 03, 2018, 07:54:12 pm
I opted for a weathered blue STS/ECC.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/5427-030918193056.jpeg)

Are they really selling that fast that I got the last one(!)? :D
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/5427-030918193944.jpeg)
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 15, 2018, 09:30:45 am
From what I remember of the STS branded ones they were usually used on domestic UK traffic notably to Sittingbourne for Bowaters. They pre-dated the NACCO silver bullets as can be seen in the 1987 photo of one at Hoo Junction on the Sittingbourne run on Paul Bartlett's site. The STS branding was covered by a CAIB vinyl in 1989/1990.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryecctank
Title: Re: Modellbahn Union Wagons - are they just Dapol?
Post by: SteveB1510 on September 20, 2018, 05:41:43 pm
From what I remember of the STS branded ones they were usually used on domestic UK traffic notably to Sittingbourne for Bowaters. They pre-dated the NACCO silver bullets as can be seen in the 1987 photo of one at Hoo Junction on the Sittingbourne run on Paul Bartlett's site. The STS branding was covered by a CAIB vinyl in 1989/1990.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryecctank

Having done a little bit of research on these blue tanks before buying a couple, they also worked up to Scotland during the 90s to Mossend & also Aberdeen/Port Elphinstone:
https://flic.kr/p/nx41kk

Thanks,

Steve