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Author Topic: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale  (Read 2067 times)

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Offline Gordon

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TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« on: May 19, 2017, 12:31:51 am »
OK - here we go!

I'll start by duplicating my post from a few days ago

I recall the TEE era (I was born 3 years after they were introduced and visited Europe every year throughout their existence). One regret from that era is that as a poor young student I could not afford to use the Rheingold, even though it ran on the route I wanted to travel from 'London' (ie Hoek van Holland) to Genève. Several times I had to  watch it leave Hoek harbour station then board a slower two-class train and take several hours more to reach Genève!

I've been constantly tempted by the recent Italian TEE car models, but they are not my top priority so the price has stopped me.
However they suit my area of interest (western Switzerland) having been used on the Lemano to Genève.

The comment about TEE being eminently suitable for modelling is spot on.

The Lemano was usually only 4 or 5 coaches.

 and I remember the Genève portion of the Rheingold - 4 or 5 coaches with a SBB Re4/4I

In fact a great memory of my youth is the early evening at Genève when the Catalan Talgo arrived from Barcelona about 19.30, with the Rheingold having arrived around 18.45 from The North Sea coast!

to sum up:

Lemano (FS type Gran confort stock)
Rheingold ('DB' type TEE stock)
Catalan-Talgo: red/silver Talgo III (Ibertren model which has the TEE markings - old but a good scale replica)


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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 12:35:09 am »
A reminder that TEE train name cab front etched plates are available for the Ligure , and the famous north - south French TEE trains, avail  from M Barbier (Trains 160)

http://www.trains160.com/en/detail-parts/2223-ligure-sign.html
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Online woodbury22uk

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 02:18:56 am »
Back in the early 1970s I remember the excitement of standing on the up platform at Fointainebleau-Avon station as the string of departures from Paris thundered by barely 3 minutes apart. With reliefs it was not unusual for the 13.15-ish departures from Paris to run 5 or 6 long trains running on short headways. The heavily canted  track gave the impression of trains leaning into the curve through the station. Suitable SNCF rolling stock and locomotives available from various makers over the years.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 02:19:38 am by woodbury22uk »
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Offline JanW

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 07:48:50 am »
Don't forget the Dutch-Swiss TEE RAm, my favourite DMU!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RAm_TEE_I_and_NS_DE4

Minitrix have produced a nice model (product number 12224).
http://www.trix.nl/nieuws/ram-tee-exact-op-schaal-1-87

I had a Marklin one in H0 but I switched to british n gauge  :)

Jan

Offline grumbeast

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 09:00:53 am »
I wasn't fortunate to experience the TEE trains, so I'm not sure why they have captured my imagination so much.

I have managed to collect some in N over the years,

I found a second hand Roco VT11.5 quite a few years ago at the Warley show while on a visit back from Canada.  It became my pride and joy but unfortunately it took a tumble off the layout and the motor flew apart with brushes / springs disappearing in the Carpet :( :(

The good news however is that I have just found a replacement!!!!!!! which should arrive tomorrow.. I am very excited to have this running again.

Story 2 .. Its seems I talk in my sleep and despite never having discussed the TEE with my wife, I found myself one cmas morning the happy recipient of a E103 and a minitrix Rhinegold TEE set, apparently I'd been prattling on one night and she remembered  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Story 3 .. On leaving my last job in Canada, my colleagues had a whip around and left me speechless with a RheinPfeil set with a lovely e10

I'd like to build up the collection, I'd like to build a TEE Adriatico and have managed to find an old Rivarossi E444 that while a bit fast does run quite nicely

Just to add something useful here for people too, There are some lovely films of the TEE on youtube such as this one





Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 10:15:40 am »
Like Gordon, I also repost my message from the other thread - I have to bolster my post count! :D

No - but this thread is still without pictures, and we all want to see a few N trains! :photospleasesign:
The SNCF CC-40100 from the video still was also made in N but only as a handbuilt from Trains N'co. One was on ebay a few weeks ago but €666 for half a wreck was a bit much:
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/302255492893



München Hauptbahnhof, summer 1983. The last two TEE trains in Germany both terminate at Munich Hbf. From the south the 'Mediolanum' had linked Milan with Munich since the beginning of the TEE system in 1957 but would run only one more year as a TEE. From the north the Amsterdam - Basel 'Rheingold' had gained a new branch train to Munich along with upgraded coaches and a new club car and continued as the last German TEE until 1987.

The 4-car set of the 1983 Rheingold is a new release by Arnold (Hornby), HNS4221, produced exclusively for DM-Toys.

The Italian coaches FS tipo TEE 1969 were produced in 2013 by Pirata, a 4-car set 6110 and a 2-car add-on 6111. A few months later 250 sets were also produced for Lemke Collection with different car numbers as LC7110 and LC7111. The 4-car set 6110 I had for some time but I wasn't able to find a 2-car set until recently. I have just found a retailer who still has the LC7111 (www.haertle.de), a dealer I didn't know before but with €99 and free international shipping I ordered it (half expecting a message that it was out of stock already) and promptly received the LC7111. :thumbsup:





The 1983 Rheingold received upgraded coaches with a full-length orange stripe to distinguish the Rheingold cars from the lesser 1st-class Intercity coaches. As the new signature cars (the iconic dome cars were already removed in 1976), the club cars were marked with Rheingold Club logos. The different colours of the DB and FS cars are authentic as they used different standards for their TEE equipment.




Both trains are really well suited for railway layouts as they are very short. The Mediolanum ran with five to six coaches, and the Rheingold branch train only had three (!) cars in 1983, one compartment and one open first and the club car. The cars in the set are therefore correctly lettered differently: The club car and one compartment car for TEE 16/6 from Munich to the German-Dutch border station Emmerich, the open first Munich - Amsterdam CS and the other compartment car in the set for TEE 6 as a through car Bern - Basel SBB - Amsterdam CS (on the classic Rheingold route along the Rhine, not the Munich branch train). The branch train TEE 16 went via Stuttgart to Mannheim where it was combined with TEE 6 Rheingold from Basel and continued north to Amsterdam.



From right to left and front to rear:
DB: open 1st (TEE 16/6 Munich - Amsterdam), Rheingold Club car (TEE 16/6 Munich - Emmerich),
compartment 1st (TEE 16/6 Munich - Emmerich), compartment 1st (TEE 6 Bern - Amsterdam);
FS: open 1st, dining car, compartment 1st,
baggage/transformer car, 2x compartment 1st (add-on set LC7111, the cars from the two LC sets have 'TEE Mediolanum' on the destination boards, the original Pirata sets only have smoker/non-smoker pictograms). Actually, the cars should have the older FS 'TV logo' as the newer logo was only applied to the TEE cars after international service had ended.

Engines for the Mediolanum in its final years would be FS E.444 (ancient Rivarossi) or E.656 in Italy, and Austrian ÖBB 1044 (Roco) from the Italian-Austrian border through to Munich.

The Rheingold branch train was hauled by DB BR 111 from Munich to Stuttgart and 112 from Stuttgart to Mannheim, and the Rheingold from Basel to Emmerich with the 103.

Funny thing is that for more than 30 years no one was offering the final Rheingold livery, yet now Arnold/DM-Toys have released the branch train (and will also offer a second 4-car set for the main Rheingold from Basel), just before Minitrix will release two sets of the same train later this year. These will be two 3-car sets with locomotive (so will be much more expensive than the Arnold sets), set 11627 with a 112 (TEE 17) and 11628 with a 103 (TEE 7), plus a single add-on car for a combined (rather short) 7-car southbound Rheingold. I am not a fan of Trix's policy to include locos in the sets (and the Minitrix 112 and 103 are not the greatest models), so I am quite glad that DM-Toys and Hornby have cooperated to release the Arnold sets. Plans for these already started in 2014, long before Trix announced their sets in 2016, but with the reworking of the moulds (sliding plug doors instead of hinged folding doors and the new club car) it took more than two years to release.

Online weave

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 11:37:48 pm »
Hi all,

Firstly, thank you to Gordon for starting the thread.

Secondly, I traveled a lot as a young teenager with my journalist father who did some freelance travel and other writing which took him to Europe. This is where I caught the Continental train bug including TEEs.

I remember seeing the Rheingold in Cologne and the Settebello in Rome. We didn't get to travel on these type of trains as he was on a budget but he wrote a small one off magazine for the SNCF office in London promoting a new French 'rail rover' ticket and while researching in France we got free tickets on L'Aquitaine from Paris Austerlitz to Bordeaux.

It was very memorable anyway but especially as the Orient Express was on the next platform. I didn't think it departed from the gare d'Austerlitz but there it was with lots of dressed up passengers. I bought some HO Lima Grand Confort coaches later near Ventimiglia which looked a bit odd behind my OO GWR Albert Hall. By the time I bought a Jouef CC 6500 like the slow demise of the TEEs my railway days were numbered and girls, booze and ciggies took over (not necessarily in that order). Glad I'm back, hic, yes dear, just coming, going to finish this fag first.

Thirdly bit of modeling info.

I'm not sure if this year or next but MINITRIX are releasing (or re releasing) Le Capitole. I think it comes with the name plate but as Gordon says others are available to make up L'Aquitaine or L'Etendard.

SNCF CC6500 loco MINITRIX 16611

SNCF Grand Confort coaches MINITRIX 15691 (X4)
                                                               15692 (X2)

The Grand Confort coaches can be used on several TEES, the Stanislas and Kleber (Paris Est-Strasbourg) with an SNCF BB 15000 MINITRIX loco off the top of my head.

Also the Jules Verne (Paris Montparnasse - Nantes),

Locos 1980-83 CC72000 diesel (ARNOLD) or (MINITRIX)
          1983-89 BB22200 dual voltage electric (MINITRIX)

Coaches 1980-82 DEV Inox Mistral type 69 (MANUFACTURER ?) (L S Models perhaps?) (enter Gordon info?)
               1982-89 Grand Confort (MINITRIX)

Have got more info on the Catalan Talgo with Spanish locos and changes of routing, electrification etc so will do that tomorrow.

Sorry no pics.

Also, for future ref and while I'm here, if you copy a picture off the net and then paste it on the thread, how do you get the picture to show rather than just a link to it? Sometimes it does it on its own but rarely. Think I've asked before but have terrible memory. Thanks for any help to colour up my posts.

Cheers weave  :beers:



« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:53:01 pm by weave »

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2017, 01:21:09 am »

* I'm not sure if this year or next but MINITRIX are releasing (or re releasing) Le Capitole.

§ Coaches 1980-82 DEV Inox Mistral type 69 (MANUFACTURER ?) (L S Models perhaps?) (enter Gordon info?)



* re-releasing. You can still get the Grand Confort and older Minitrix CC6500 on the second hand market quite easily

§ Confusion here: DEV Inox Mistral were the Mistral 1956 stock. Mistral 69 stock was not from the DEV family.
Mistral 69 stock was produced by LS Models but the couplers were poor which made the sets poor value for money - £200 or so for a rake of coaches that wonlt stay coupled was deemed unaccaptable by French 'N-istes'.



.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:23:36 am by Gordon »
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 05:50:30 pm by daffy »
Mike

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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2017, 04:06:17 pm »
Don't forget the Dutch-Swiss TEE RAm, my favourite DMU!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RAm_TEE_I_and_NS_DE4

Minitrix have produced a nice model (product number 12224).
http://www.trix.nl/nieuws/ram-tee-exact-op-schaal-1-87


I don't want to spoil it for any proud owners but to be honest, I find the Minitrix version terrible. :sorrysign:
The gaps and cutouts for the bogies (straight through the doors!), the oversized lamps and the free space above the power car bogies in the side view (retouched black on the factory photos) are awful. (I am usually not that negative but in this case the complaints were justified.) Look at the photos from the old Miba test (from http://miba.de/mibatest/mtram.htm).

  :goggleeyes:
  :-\

When the Minitrix RAm was released around the year 2000 there were rumors that the moulds were already done by Märklin in the 1960s when they introduced their H0 TEE. Märklin did advertise around 1968 that they had N-scale models production-ready but chose not to release them (they only showed BR 01 and V200 with coaches) as "such a small scale would not convey the heft and power of the real railway" (only to bring out Z just a few years later :doh:).
I guess for the 1960s it would have been a Model of the Year but for the 2000s it was bad modelmaking. The dining car also had a window missing (as did the old, shortened Märklin H0) but at least this was corrected for later releases like the Northlander and the NS version.

Offline JanW

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2017, 07:07:45 pm »
I don't want to spoil it for any proud owners but to be honest, I find the Minitrix version terrible. :sorrysign:

 :goggleeyes:
Ok, I think I should have said 'Minitrix have made a NOT SO NICE model'.
Just realised I judged it bij the pictures of the Trix H0 version.
Sorry!

Jan

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2017, 07:22:03 pm »
I don't want to spoil it for any proud owners but to be honest, I find the Minitrix version terrible. :sorrysign:

 :goggleeyes:
Ok, I think I should have said 'Minitrix have made a NOT SO NICE model'.
Just realised I judged it bij the pictures of the Trix H0 version.
Sorry!

Jan

No problem - the Trix H0 version also seems to have its problems with the diaphragms in curves, much worse than the older Märklin or the Roco RAm. You can see it here:
https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=27269&start=25

But back to N and to a much nicer model:



Just in time for the weekend, the weather turned bad, so I used the Saturday to look through boxes for TEE trains. Of course the one I was especially looking for, Roco's DB TEE, was nowhere to be found :doh: - only other versions and add-on sets but not the one with the TEE power cars. ::) I hope grumbeast will help out with photos once his TEE is complete again. :)

Anyway, I can present the SBB RAe TEE II 'Gottardo' (Hobbytrain 1400).

The RAe was introduced in 1961, just four years after the TEE system, and for the first time used electric power instead of the diesel trainsets that were necessary earlier because of the different types of overhead power supply in Europe. Therefore the RAe was capable to operate with four different electric systems. Four 5-car trains were built in 1961 which were extended with an extra car in 1966, followed by another 6-car train a year later. As a 5-car train the power car was not in the center but next to a driving trailer; the extra car was then inserted between them.

The 'Gottardo' was the TEE linking Zurich and Milan but the same trainset would continue as the TEE 'Cisalpin' to Paris and back to Milan, then as the TEE 'Ticino' to Zurich and back to Milan, and finally as the return 'Gottardo' to Zurich on the evening of the third day. The next day was scheduled for maintenance before the Zurich - Milan - Paris - Milan - Zurich - Milan - Zurich journey followed again.



Current is only picked up from the leading car in either direction and supplied to the powered car via conductive couplers.

Dining car and power car turned around to show the other side. The power car had a side corridor for passengers to get to the dining car. I have also turned the couplers sideways to show how the diaphragms move to the side in tight curves - they look best on straights.


Four pantographs, one for each of the four electric systems. - No, that would have been too easy. For example Germany and Switzerland use the same electric system but need different pantographs as the Swiss standard is narrower. So, different pantos are used for the same current and also the same panto for different voltages. I have raised panto 3 (I think) which is the one for the SBB.


Each panto can be raised and the lowered pantos rest close within each other's space as on the prototype.


In 1988 the Gottardo was reclassified as a 2-class EuroCity, and the RAe TEE were rebuilt and renamed as RABe EC. Hobbytrain also produced this version (Hobbytrain 14100), also lettered as Gottardo. The dining car was turned around for the RABe, and the power car's window and door configuration was changed. The RABe continued in EuroCity service until 1994 and were taken out of service in 1999.




The Hobbytrain models date from the late 1980s. Lemke later acquired the rights to the Hobbytrain name and about ten years ago commissioned a new run of the RAe and RABe from Kato. These were released under the Kato brand with the numbers K11400/K11405 (RAe, without/with interior lighting) and K11401/K11406 (RABe). They differ from the older Hobbytrain versions as the troublesome conductive couplers were removed; the power car picks up power itself. The new versions can be recognized by their grey diaphragms. The RABe has the same number 1055 as the Hobbytrain version but the TEE was numbered 1053 instead of 1051. The Kato model replicates the museum train 1053 of SBB Historic and would not be correct for the 1961-88 period (if you are picky). The power car was not "un-rebuilt" to original specification on the museum train although the dining car was turned around again.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 08:52:50 am by Hiawatha, Reason: Wrong date for EC service + spelling »

Online woodbury22uk

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2017, 10:56:54 pm »
The Hobbytrain "Gottardo" has one weak spot which is the sprung power collectors between the cars. You only need one to lose contact to disable the train lighting, and power to the motored car. I recall someone coming up with a way of hard wiring between the cars about 10 years ago which today we would make more flexible using miniature 2 pole JST connectors at each end of the cars.

Otherwise an imposing train and my two tone grey one looks very impressive.
Mike

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2017, 01:00:45 am »

But back to N and to a much nicer model:

Anyway, I can present the SBB RAe TEE II 'Gottardo' (Hobbytrain 1400).

The 'Gottardo' was the TEE linking Zurich and Milan but the same trainset would continue as the TEE 'Cisalpin' to Paris and back to Milan, then as the TEE 'Ticino' to Zurich and back to Milan, and finally as the return 'Gottardo' to Zurich on the evening of the third day. T

A significant omission from the story above is their use on the TEEs to Brussels and Amsterdam in late 1970s, which made full (actually better than previously) use of their 4-system capability. After the Cisalpin was converted to loco hauled (with Mistral 69 stock) the RAe found use on the routes to Belgium (3000 dc) and Netherlands (1500dc) via eastern France (25kV ac), from Switzerland (15kV ac)



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First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2017, 08:59:57 am »
A significant omission from the story above is their use on the TEEs to Brussels and Amsterdam in late 1970s, which made full (actually better than previously) use of their 4-system capability. After the Cisalpin was converted to loco hauled (with Mistral 69 stock) the RAe found use on the routes to Belgium (3000 dc) and Netherlands (1500dc) via eastern France (25kV ac), from Switzerland (15kV ac)
I only mentioned the Cisalpin and Ticino as they were directly connected to the Gottardo - and the Hobbytrain models are both lettered for the Gottardo. I didn't find the later Edelweiss and Iris service relevant as they were rather shortlived. The Gottardo was operated by RAe from 1961 until 1988 - the Edelweiss and Iris only for about five to seven years. For me the Edelweiss is mostly associated with the RAm (1957-74) but your reference to the better use of its 4-system capability is a good one. On the Gottardo itself only two of the four would be used.

 

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