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Author Topic: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale  (Read 3635 times)

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2017, 12:24:28 am »

SNCF
CC-6500 - BB-7200 - BB-9200 - BB-9300 - BB-15000 - BB-16000
BB-20200 - BB-21000 - BB-22200 - BB-25200 - BB-25500 - BB-26000/30000 - CC-40100
BB-66400 - BB-67000 - BB-67400 - CC-72000

Just to clarify that the mention of BB26000 does not mean the present day BB26000 'Sybic' locos.

The early 26000 was a prototype modification of a dc only BB9400, and was lattrely classified BB30000.


.
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2017, 06:29:47 pm »
I am sceptical about some of the locos cited in the list. Some look unlikely to me, particularly in regular booked service. Hiawatha, I Haven't got the book so would be interested in what the authors claim for some of the locos. If at all some locos in the list would have hauled TEEs for short distances across border zones - maybe that's it?

For example, I can't think why a small mixed traffic diesel like the SNCF 66000 would have been booked to haul a TEE unless it was for example the short  Tourcoing - Lille leg of some TEEs. 

Equally in Switzerland I don't recall Ae6/6 or Re6/6 used on TEE on a day to day basis, so my guess is that these might have worked the Rheingold round the Basel Bad Bf - Basel SBB link, or perhaps on the Lemano in the case of Re6/6?

I had to look up the BB-66400 which I didn't know, and this really doesn't look like a TEE locomotive. This was used on the TEEs Faidherbe, Gayant and Watteau on the last 20 km or so from Lille - Roubaix - Tourcoing in 1978-80 before electrification.

Re 6/6 were used on the TEEs Roland (1972-79) and Cisalpin (1980-84) for longer trains (shorter trains with Re 4/4 II-IV).

Ae 6/6 were only used on the Roland in April 1975 when the Gotthard line was blocked by avalanches and all traffic was diverted over the Lötschberg line. Ae 6/6 were then used all the way from Basel to Domodossola.



I have always been more interested in the TEE trainsets than the loco-hauled trains but have now taken a closer look at the Renfe locos, following the Talgo discussion. The Startrain Renfe 7600/276 was made in a few versions suitable for the Talgo TEE. Additionally to the Startrain 60120 (276.030-4) mentioned by weave, I have also found 60118 (276.062-7) and 60137 (earlier number 7666, without blue ends) on a Japanese blog from "SpurN Modellbahner Japan" with a few nice photos:

https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/nicky2526/43099012.html
https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/nicky2526/42807033.html

(And if you haven't had enough of the Minitrix RAm Horror Picture Show there is also a blog entry about that:
https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/nicky2526/47929789.html:o

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2017, 12:37:17 am »


I am sceptical about some of the locos cited in the list.  If at all some locos in the list would have hauled TEEs for short distances across border
For example, I can't think why a small mixed traffic diesel like the SNCF 66000 would have been booked to haul a TEE unless it was for example the short  Tourcoing - Lille leg of some TEEs. 

I had to look up the BB-66400 which I didn't know, and this really doesn't look like a TEE locomotive. This was used on the TEEs Faidherbe, Gayant and Watteau on the last 20 km or so from Lille - Roubaix - Tourcoing in 1978-80 before electrification.

So you can see why I was sceptical about this one...
However I knew I would be correct about where they were used, as I am familiar with the territory. In fact the line is only 12km long.

I actually rode the Tourcoing - Lille line 3 weeks ago as I stayed in Tourcoing as a cheaper hotel location than central Lille for the big Trainsmania model railway show (at which there were of course ironically lots of TEE models on show and for sale!)

By the way the latter day Paris - Tourcoing trains were only made into TEEs to placate angry business clientele who lost their full dining option when the rest of the Lille services were 'modernised' to only include a snack or bar facility in Corail stock.


.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 12:41:01 am by Gordon »
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
French Railways Consultant
European railway expert

First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2017, 10:30:56 pm »
Hi,
A  little parade of TEE trains .....

https://youtu.be/Sh7npvXm-Os

Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Offline daffy

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2017, 07:25:10 am »
Following a link from another thread took me at length to an interesting Swiss  website, in German, that I hope is of interest to all TEE fans here:

http://www.tee-classics.ch/


Here is a Google translation of the websites 'Vision' from its About page, that is self explanatory:

Quote
TEE-CLASSICS is Europe's first address and institution for the preservation of the TEE cultural heritage.

goals

We use the common knowledge and resources to save valuable vehicles from disappearing and, if possible, put them into operation again.
We are committed to the best possible cooperation with our partners and maintain partnership with all parties involved in the historical rail market.
We inform our members, the public and the media openly and at an early stage. We want to create a healthy climate of trust so that our work is recognized.
We document the former network of first-class railway connections for the consolidation of European economic centers.
We strive for the best possible use of available resources and the best use of resources.
tasks

The club TEE-CLASSICS

Maintains and operates historical rolling stock from the TEE era and actively or passively supports other organizations with similar interests.
Organizes historical rail travel with own or foreign rolling stock.
Is present at appropriate fairs, exhibitions and special events and promotes cooperation with partners.
Maintains an archive with image sound and text documents that are directly or indirectly related to the TEE theme.
Operates the TEE shop with books, documentation, picture and sound carriers as well as interesting TEE accessories.
TEE-CLASSICS is a non-profit organization based on the association and thus dependent on the financial contributions of the members as well as the support of partners. Do you also like the TEE era or would you like to support TEE-CLASSICS projects? Here you will find out how to become a member of TEE-CLASSICS as well as the advantages that await you. We look forward to you!

Or would you like to participate actively? Our volunteers are grateful for their support.



Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2017, 12:19:35 pm »
Seems we missed the 60th birthday – June 2, 1957 was the first day of TEE services.

Last week I got a new locomotive from ebay which I want to show along with the two Arnold sets of the TEEs Blauer Enzian (0187) and Erasmus (0188). These sets are from the last German production and although introduced twenty years ago, they are still some of the best TEE cars with better proportions than the Minitrix and Fleischmann offerings. The 4-car sets contain one compartment and one open first and the dining and bar cars. Add-on cars with different numbers – now very hard to find – were available; 3815 (compartment)/3816 (open) for the Blauer Enzian and 3817/3818 (plus the not so good Eurofima 3832) for the Erasmus.



The Blauer Enzian cars are epoch III with black skirts, the Erasmus epoch IV with red skirts. Both sets are not ideally suited for a classic 1970s TEE with a 103, as the Blauer Enzian wore the epoch III markings for only about three years, and the cars from the Erasmus set with their red skirts were not yet common in 1979/80 when most of the German TEEs were discontinued. The red skirts are better suited for the first-class section of 1980s 2-class ICs.



Unfortunately, no ep. IV versions with black skirts of these cars were released by Arnold before the Rivarossi group bankruptcy in 2002. (There were red/beige ep. IV Rheingold cars 0353/3964/3965 with black skirts but those are the earlier designs with round roof ends.)

At the time of release Arnold made quite some fuss about the authentic, different colours of the two sets: The Blauer Enzian painted with the darker RAL 1001 Beige and the Erasmus with the lighter RAL 1014 Elfenbein (ivory) that was introduced along with ocean blue in 1974. A bit of a pity that Arnold’s knowledge about the different colours didn’t stretch to the locos – all their E03/103.0 versions were painted in the later, lighter shade, so there was no matching E03 to pull the Blauer Enzian. (The newer Hornby release HN2018 may be in the darker shade.)



TEE Blauer Enzian with 103 109-5, October 1973 – © Prof. Dr. Willi Hager Eisenbahnstiftung
from http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com/tee-blauer-enzian.html

The Hamburg–Munich Blauer Enzian became a TEE in 1965 and was equipped with new cars that were based on the 1962/63 Rheingold/Rheinpfeil cars but with vertical roof ends.
The dome/bar cars and “humpback” dining cars were replaced with new, longer types, both 27.5 m instead of 26.4 m. These two cars in the sets 0187 and 0188 correctly are slightly longer although in the catalogues for some time their length was stated as 165 mm instead of 171.

The Blauer Enzian was the DB’s first train running with scheduled 200 km/h, from summer 1968, pulled by the E03 prototypes. Already a year later 200 km/h running was suspended because of increasing track damage, and it wasn’t until 1977 that speeds over 160 km/h were regularly run again on DB rails.
In 1969 the Blauer Enzian was extended to Klagenfurt in southern Austria, and in the summer of 1976 or ’77 this was the only time that I, as a child, had the privilege to travel on board a TEE, between Salzburg and Klagenfurt (not that I remember anything but my grandpa told me years later). Actually, the train wasn’t classified as a TEE in Austria as the ÖBB was no member of the TEE consortium, so there was no TEE surcharge (but seat reservation was still needed and of course the first-class ticket). In 1979 it was discontinued as a TEE. 




IC Erasmus with 103 109-5, August 1983 – © Wolfgang Bügel Eisenbahnstiftung
from http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com/icec-erasmus.html

Not much to say about the Erasmus: This was a short-lived TEE that was running from 1973 to 1980 between Den Haag and Munich. In its last year 1979/80 it was shortened to Amsterdam–Frankfurt. From summer 1980 it was continued as an Intercity between Amsterdam and Innsbruck. As the Arnold cars don’t have any destination signs, they can of course be used for every other TEE that used DB equipment.


The photo is not of the TEE but shows the later IC instead – but with only the first-class section visible it could also pass as a TEE. In 1983 the red skirted coaches were already quite common.

I have chosen this picture because of the locomotive, 103 109-5. This is the same loco that can be seen in front of the Blauer Enzian above. It is also the same 103 that I have just got, Minitrix 12539, produced from about 2004 to 2006. This is the only 103 with the silver arrow around the grille area, and also the thin red lines extend over the doors on this engine only.



So, why the special livery? 103 109-5 was the first 103 delivered, in May 1970. Numbers 103 101–108 were allocated to a build lot from Krauss-Maffei that was delivered in 1971. The 109 was the first of Henschel’s build lot and after this one it was decided to change the paint scheme for the following engines.
103 109-5 was also produced by Arnold for many years (the old 103 version 0235/2350) but without the silver arrow, so I assumed that this design was quickly changed to the standard livery. But in reality the engine kept the silver arrow until 1987. So, out of 115 possible numbers Arnold chose exactly the one number that was the wrong one for the standard livery ... ::)



The Minitrix model isn’t without fault either. I don’t particularly like the thick plastic power lines on the roof and also the frontal skirts are far too small. The Arnold and Fleischmann locos are much better overall. I only bought this Minitrix for its unique paint scheme, however, the red lines across the doors should be without interruption but this was probably too difficult to print properly.
In this picture (before resizing) I noticed a Krupp logo – strange, since I had read before that this was the first of the Henschel builds. Of course, the second logo – AEG, for the electric equipment – is also wrong for the 109, it should be Siemens. :doh: (On the Trix H0 counterpart, the logos are correct.)
Sometimes I really don’t know what I should think about the model producers and their research which would be okay for a Brio loco. Is it really that difficult to get something right? Or am I nitpicking as the logos are so small anyway?

The Fleischmann BB-15006 in the background I will discuss next time.

And if you have a bit of money left this month there is a nice loco on ebay. A cheap buy-it-now and there are more than 300 watching already, so hurry!  ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311769618273


« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:56:40 am by Hiawatha »

Offline weave

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2017, 04:10:21 pm »
Hi Hiawatha,

Great stuff. Thanks for that.

Nice pics, links and info.

Had to move on quickly past the Austrian loco pics. Have always liked them but have to steer clear as one slip on ebay and it would mean new layout in my head which is not possible physically or financially  :no:  :(

Love the DB too but my will to resist is stronger there.

Looking forward to the SNCF instalment. Not my region on the main layout but there is Rule 1 potential on the other one.

Cheers again,

weave  :beers:

PS I'm sure the TEEs will forgive us. I forget my sister's birthday all the time and she's still speaking to me (just).

PPS Bet Fulgurex reckon that last link's way too cheap!


Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2017, 01:26:04 am »

The Fleischmann BB-15006 in the background I will discuss next time.


The BB15000 entered service in July 1971 and were used on the Paris - Strasbourg route in TEE days, hauling the TEE Stanislas, and TEE Kléber virtually throughout there existence (both the TEEs were launched in 1971).

BB15006 was the first one delivered in the red and silver livery (BB15001 - 5 were delivered in green). BB15006 entered service on 15 November 1972

The Fleischmann BB15006 was made in vast numbers and hundreds remain available second hand today.

However it counts as a 'goof' in that they etched a TEE symbol into the side of the model (which is flipping difficult to remove). On the real BB15000s the TEE symbol was a separate plate that was hung onto lugs on the side of the loco, but this proved impractical in daily use and the idea was dropped very quickly, and was hardly ever used except for the first press launches and a few days/weeks thereafter.

Thus the model 'out of the box' represents an accuracy factor of virtually nil, unless one's layout represents a few weeks in 1971!

Even with the TEE logo scratched off, the livery still only accurate for a period of around 10 years as the silver was replaced by grey, and subsequently all the early BB15000s had their ventilation grilles modified.

BB15006 caught fire and was withdrawn in 2005, but interestingly BB15001 - 5 are still in service


.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 01:35:51 am by Gordon »
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
French Railways Consultant
European railway expert

First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2017, 05:45:27 pm »
Just a heads-up for those interested in the Italian TEE cars from Pirata (page 1). While looking for something else I have noticed that French dealer trains160.com still has them in stock and has reduced the price to €179 for the 4-car set and €88 for the two-car add-on.

http://www.trains160.com/en/coaches/4600-set-de-4-voitures-fs-gran-confort-tee.html
http://www.trains160.com/en/coaches/4601-set-de-2-voitures-fs-gran-confort-tee.html

These are Pirata numbers 6112 and 6113 and seem to have been made exclusively for trains160. The description mentions the 'Ligure' from Milan to Avignon but I think the cars come without a train name on the destination boards, like the original Pirata sets 6110/11.

Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 12:53:45 am »
Hi,
I think that reducing this writes to 1/160 is a little difficult?.. :)

...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2017, 05:34:04 pm »
Marco, we have no idea what you're talking about as your photos don't show up. ;)

Offline weave

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2017, 06:44:28 pm »
Hi Hiawatha,

I don't think you should really say WE and talk for all of us.

Anyway, Marco, I have no idea what you're talking about as your photos don't show up  ;)  :D

Cheers weave  :beers:


Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2017, 10:07:36 pm »
I don't know why pics cannot be seen... :doh:

Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Online port perran

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2017, 10:16:31 pm »
It's because Photobucket are now charging for third party hosting.
Younredto use the add image button.
It's you railway so build it as you want and run whatever you like. The only rule is - ENJOY :
My Layouts -
Port Perran:- Trepol Bay:-

Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2017, 06:23:46 am »
It's because Photobucket are now charging for third party hosting.
Younredto use the add image button.

Ok,
Thank you

Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

 

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