Choosing the wagons...

[wooster]

Hello! I'm just new for british railways, my first loco became Dapol's class 22 and I want to choose some wagons to make a short trains, local passenger and freight. My knowleadge about british rolling stock is not good, so I would be grateful for some help

The 'Baby Warship' define the region and the time - western region branches in the beginning of 60's. I'm collecting a fotos from the net and as I saw, the typical western freights, like a china clay, commonly had many of the same wagons - but I would like to make a mixed freight short train.

I think it can consist of brake van,2-3 covered van (aka boxcar), wooden (5-7 plank) vans or the same, but steel, vans, 3-axe tanker for petroleum or such. But searching for the models of such wagons, I find the different colours of vans, like a BR bauxite early and late and BR grey - does it all fit to early 60's?

And the second question is abouth brake vans - I saw the models of LMS type brake van, N-E type brake van, but they have been observed to be suitable for BR era 5 too - which type will be correct to use in western region freights?

Thank you

[wooster]

And the same question is about the passenger train on the local branches in Cornwall - I think about short two coaches train in BR maroon for this period, saw the Dapol's "Collett coaches, but what is the difference between "composite", "brake composite" and the "second"?
Also, I would like to choose the coaches, which I can later use in the "mainline" passenger train, with Warship or Western - so the better can be the models, which can be use on the both ways - in local and in the main passengers trains.

[keithfre]

but what is the difference between "composite", "brake composite" and the "second"?

'Second' means all the compartments/seats are second class, 'composite' a mixture of first and second class, and 'brake composite' the same with a guard's compartment containing a brake (derived from the earlier brake van).

[zwilnik]

If it's for unfitted goods trains (i.e open wagons, box vans etc. without vacuum brakes) then the GWR style "Toad" brake van would be a good choice in BR Bauxite or plain grey I think. They were the GWR's standard brake van and the western region inherited hundreds of them

You could also drop in the odd 6 wheel milk tanker. These were fitted with vacuum brakes and rated for express running, so could be in a train on their own without a brake van (Dapol even do a box set of a class 22 and 6x 6 wheel milk tankers) but could also be dropped on the end of a passenger train.

[dodger]

During the 1960's all trains required a brake vehicle of some sort. On freight trains, even when fully fitted, the brake van would be at the rear.

It was not until the 1970's that fully fitted freight trains ran without a brake vehicle.

Dodger

[Newportnobby]

I tend to use either a 'Toad' brake van as suggested above or the Peco NR28B one. Coal is carried in Peco NR44B and my vans are mainly Peco NR43B. I don't think there will be any issue in running grey with/without bauxite trucks.

[wooster]

I'm interesting, does Peco wagon kits have a decals in a kit?

[Jerry Howlett]

A simple no is the answer.  But there are plenty of suppliers out there but you will end up with dozens of spares.

If it is just a couple of kits just ask as someone may send you what you need, I would if I had them as post even from here is only E1   about £3 at next years exchange rates  ....

Jerry

[johnlambert]

The 'Baby Warship' define the region and the time - western region branches in the beginning of 60's. I'm collecting a fotos from the net and as I saw, the typical western freights, like a china clay, commonly had many of the same wagons - but I would like to make a mixed freight short train.

I think it can consist of brake van,2-3 covered van (aka boxcar), wooden (5-7 plank) vans or the same, but steel, vans, 3-axe tanker for petroleum or such. But searching for the models of such wagons, I find the different colours of vans, like a BR bauxite early and late and BR grey - does it all fit to early 60's?

The colours of wagons showed what sort of braking system was used.  Bauxite wagons had brakes that could be connected to the locomotive's braking system; grey wagons did not, they only had a mechanical hand brake that could only be applied by standing next to the wagon.  The bauxite wagons had to be coupled next to the locomotive in order for the braking system to be connected.

In the early 1960s a local goods train could contain a mix of open wagons and covered vans. I've just done a quick online search; this page http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/dinas/ has a nice colour picture of a goods train that consists of a grey steel mineral wagon (full of coal, I think), two bauxite vans and a brake van.  Although it is a steam locomotive in the picture the Class 22 was built to do similar work.

[johnlambert]

As for coaches the two main choices would be Dapol Collett coaches or Graham Farish British Railways Mk1.  In the 1960s some trains would stop at a junction station and one or two coaches would be detached and taken down the branch line.  The same coaches would later return to the junction station to be re-attached to an express returning in the opposite direction.

Trains did run between different regions so you could also see different types of  coaches, sometimes all mixed into one train.  Most likely for the South West of England, where the Class 22 worked, would be the Southern Region Maunsell (Dapol) or Bulleid (Graham Farish) coaches but that's not to say that a Gresley (Dapol) or Stanier (Farish) coach might not be seen occasionally having come from either the Eastern or Midland Regions.

I hope this helps you.

[wooster]

As for coaches the two main choices would be Dapol Collett coaches or Graham Farish British Railways Mk1.  In the 1960s some trains would stop at a junction station and one or two coaches would be detached and taken down the branch line.  The same coaches would later return to the junction station to be re-attached to an express returning in the opposite direction.

Trains did run between different regions so you could also see different types of  coaches, sometimes all mixed into one train.  Most likely for the South West of England, where the Class 22 worked, would be the Southern Region Maunsell (Dapol) or Bulleid (Graham Farish) coaches but that's not to say that a Gresley (Dapol) or Stanier (Farish) coach might not be seen occasionally having come from either the Eastern or Midland Regions.

I hope this helps you.

Thank you, this info is interesting and very usefull  to make passenger and freight trains in right order. I saw the different colours in the trains like "The Cornishman" and "Cornish Rivera Express" on the 60's fotos - mixed of red and two-tone livered wagons (I haven't enough knowledge to determine the types of coaches yet)

[NeMo]

One thing worth mentioning is that a "mixed train" is specifically one with at least one unbraked ("unfitted") vehicle. Such trains would indeed need a brake van behind the unfitted vehicles, which would usually be behind the coaching stock. An example might be one or more passenger coaches, followed by the classic 16-ton coal wagon, and then a brake van of some sort.

However, a passenger train however could include braked ("fitted") vehicles without being a mixed train. At various times it was fairly common for mixtures of passenger coaches with what are called NPCCS, or "non-passenger carrying coaching stock", for example parcels vans and milk tankers. Less commonly. XP-rated ("express") braked goods vans and tankers might be included as well, perhaps most notably fish vans and oil tankers in the north of Scotland well into the 1980s.

True mixed trains ran very slowly across very short distances (a few miles) on very rural lines that have minimal traffic otherwise. Trains made entirely up from fitted vehicles could run on all sorts of lines and at much greater speed, so while never common, are perhaps easier to model legitimately.

Taking your Class 22 for example, pre-1968 you'd certainly have this one working milk trains with some sort of brake vehicle at the end, and an old full brake Collett coach (of the sort the N Gauge Society produce) would be completely authentic. (Mk1 full brakes would be possible, but probably much rarer in practise because they were still relatively new at that point, and more likely to be working mainline rather than branch line trains.) Similarly sticking the the diesel in front of one or two Collett or Mk1 coaches working a rural stopping service, and then attaching a milk tanker or a brown XP-rated goods van would be perfectly possible too.

I model similar sorts of trains, and using "Rule 1", attach XP-rated fish vans to the ends of short passenger trains. These vans weren't used, so far as I know, on the Western Region, being more of a north of England and especially Scottish thing. But they look right, and if there was sufficient traffic from a given West Country harbour, they might have been used!

Cheers, NeMo

[Bealman]

As a kid, I grew up in NE England and was always fascinated by the Western Toad brake vans.

The huge open verandah at the back suggested much warmer climes!

All the above suggestions are sound.

[johnlambert]

Just to offer you a little inspiration, here is a photo of one of my Class 22s on a goods train.

[wooster]

Thanks to all, very interesting and usefull!
Just want to note - I don't know the british railways terms well, so I used the word "mixed" for the trains which have different types of goods wagons/vans in it, and even passenger and goods together.