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General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: BrakeCoach on October 03, 2018, 11:40:53 PM

Title: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: BrakeCoach on October 03, 2018, 11:40:53 PM
Hello,
I am finding an engine suitable for my Mk3 Push-pull set(DVT) in intercity swallow.
Currently it seems like the Class 90s are out, as well as the swallow 87s.
I am thinking to put a Railfreight Grey class 92 instead, but I am still unsure that it is able to do push-pull work.
What is suitable for a full intercity-liveried Mk3 push-pull set?
Are the 92s also able for push-pull?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: LeftToMyOwnDevices on October 03, 2018, 11:53:45 PM
Quote from: BrakeCoach on October 03, 2018, 11:40:53 PM
Hello,
I am finding an engine suitable for my Mk3 Push-pull set(DVT) in intercity swallow.
Currently it seems like the Class 90s are out, as well as the swallow 87s.
I am thinking to put a Railfreight Grey class 92 instead, but I am still unsure that it is able to do push-pull work.
What is suitable for a full intercity-liveried Mk3 push-pull set?
Are the 92s also able for push-pull?
Thanks.

I would seriously doubt that the Class 92 (when they arrive, or an existing CJM one) have push-pull equipment to work with a Mk3 DVT set.

However, you correctly say that an 87 or 90 would be suitable, if you can get hold of one (in the correct livery).

If you can hold off for a few months (or as long as it takes...), then there is this:
https://www.hattons.co.uk/274737/Dapol_2D_026_003_Class_86_2_86243_The_Boys_Brigade_in_Intercity_Executive_livery/StockDetail.aspx (https://www.hattons.co.uk/274737/Dapol_2D_026_003_Class_86_2_86243_The_Boys_Brigade_in_Intercity_Executive_livery/StockDetail.aspx)

As far as I am aware (and I'm sure others will correct me) a Class 86 would have operated with a Mk3 DVT set. Quite whether only certain sub-class(es) with TDM jumpers would, I'm not so sure.

Charles.
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: Intercity on October 04, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
An Intercity Mk3 rake from the mid 90s could have:

Class 86/1
Class 86/2
Class 86/4 (RES on hire)
Class 87/0 (87101 was an RFD loco I believe with ETH isolated)
Class 90/0 (001-015 in Intercity, 016-020 in RES, 021-024 in RFD/024 later painted into GNER blue) (90/1 locos had TDM cables removed and ETH isolated, they also lowered their top speed to 75mph, this was changed at a later date to restore them to the same specs as the rest of the class)

Class 91s were used with Mk4s, however when testing may have been seen with Mk3s albeit not in revenue service.

In later years EWS, RFD and FL class 90s could be used
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: MJKERR on October 04, 2018, 06:14:50 AM
Quote from: BrakeCoach on October 03, 2018, 11:40:53 PM
I am finding an engine suitable for my Mk3 Push-pull set(DVT) in intercity swallow.
Priority was given to electric locos capable of 110mph
So you are looking for :
Class 86/1
Class 86/2 uprated to 110mph
Class 87/0
Class 87/1
Class 90
Class 90/0

On rare occasions one of the above locos was not available, so a Class 86/2 or 86/4 (prior to transfer to freight sector) would be used

Where such a set required a diesel loco due to a diversion in most cases the electric loco would not be included
Priority would be given to a Class 47/4
However, if the diversion was quite short then the electric loco would be included
If the diversion as less than one hour then typically any diesel loco could be used (Class 37 or Class 47)
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: Karhedron on October 04, 2018, 10:21:41 AM
I used to spot at Euston in the early 90s and 86s, 87s and 90s were all common on push-pull sets.

The Farish 87s and 90s are both fairly old but will do the job. My personal preference if you want collars and cuffs to match would be to look out for a Dapol 86 in Swallow livery. 86213 was code ND099b. It is out of production currently but 2nd hand examples turn up from time to time.

Although strictly speaking it should have had black window frames.

(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/ND099b_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: BrakeCoach on October 09, 2018, 10:57:15 AM
Quote from: Intercity on October 04, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
An Intercity Mk3 rake from the mid 90s could have:

Class 86/1
Class 86/2
Class 86/4 (RES on hire)
Class 87/0 (87101 was an RFD loco I believe with ETH isolated)
Class 90/0 (001-015 in Intercity, 016-020 in RES, 021-024 in RFD/024 later painted into GNER blue) (90/1 locos had TDM cables removed and ETH isolated, they also lowered their top speed to 75mph, this was changed at a later date to restore them to the same specs as the rest of the class)

Class 91s were used with Mk4s, however when testing may have been seen with Mk3s albeit not in revenue service.

In later years EWS, RFD and FL class 90s could be used
Another question, did RFD Class 86/4 ever pulled push-pull sets?
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: Karhedron on October 09, 2018, 11:05:41 AM
Quote from: BrakeCoach on October 09, 2018, 10:57:15 AM
Another question, did RFD Class 86/4 ever pulled push-pull sets?

I think so. The picture below shows mainly Mk2 coaches but I believe these were still push-pull rakes with a Mk3 DVT at the end.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3758/9730381827_e40ff22271_b.jpg)

The shot below shows that Mk2 rakes were often coupled with Mk3 DVTs

(http://www.traintesting.com/images/82101_Bham_Int.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: The Q on October 09, 2018, 02:01:47 PM
How about A 37 and a 68 with a  MK 3 https://youtu.be/hy_d3o2jVxk,
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: Intercity on October 09, 2018, 04:35:17 PM
During that time period the RFD class 86s could show up, but only for a failed shove capable engine, the RFD loco could only pull it had its TDM equipment isolated, the above picture I believe was a cross country service which did not use DVTs and only needed a pull loco.
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: crewearpley40 on October 09, 2018, 05:36:47 PM
first the history lessons :

http://www.traintesting.com/MK3_DVT.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/MK3_DVT.htm)

the edinburgh - north berwick used re allocated virgin wcml stock after the introduction of pendelinos

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mk-3-dvt.130076/ (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mk-3-dvt.130076/)]https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mk-3-dvt.130076/

i have never seen a class 86 / 4 with a dvt, mainly 86 / 2, 87 and 90
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: Intercity on October 09, 2018, 06:14:38 PM
I had a pair of 86/6s shove my Glasgow-Euston (1M31) once, although it was caused by the failure of 90008 which was on the front of the DVT due to a TDM failure, the 90 broke down at Penrith and was shoved into Eden Valley loop by the 86s on 4L?? Complete with its train of intermodel containers, once in the loop they backed out and ran down the mainline leaving us stranded, Intercity were kind enough to send 47853 from Crewe to rescue us (it worked the train all the way to Euston, we even got to watch 1M34 and 1M35 pass us we sat there that long)

But that's not the kind of stuff the OP is looking for, just thought I'd share.
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: crewearpley40 on October 09, 2018, 06:31:36 PM
not fun being stuck between penrith and shap on clifton junction
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: MJKERR on October 09, 2018, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: BrakeCoach on October 09, 2018, 10:57:15 AM
Another question, did RFD Class 86/4 ever pulled push-pull sets?
I do not remember any performing this
It is possible but more likely to be in pull only where a loco had failed and would then be replaced later in the day
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: MJKERR on October 09, 2018, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on October 09, 2018, 11:05:41 AM
I think so. The picture below shows mainly Mk2 coaches but I believe these were still push-pull rakes with a Mk3 DVT at the end.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3758/9730381827_e40ff22271_b.jpg)
Class 86/4 were used on Glasgow / Edinburgh - Birmingham services, and sadly this is one of those
At weekends it was quite common for the Freight livery 86/4 to be used, as they were spare
Equally, these locos shared both freight and parcels duties

For a short period the ETH was isolated, but this proved impractical so was reinstated (and same applied to the Class 90)

This all ended when the Cross Country franchise was awarded
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: MJKERR on October 09, 2018, 07:19:38 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on October 09, 2018, 11:05:41 AM
I think so. The picture below shows mainly Mk2 coaches but I believe these were still push-pull rakes with a Mk3 DVT at the end.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3758/9730381827_e40ff22271_b.jpg)
Class 86/4 were used on Glasgow / Edinburgh - Birmingham services, and sadly this is one of those as the first coach is a RFO
At weekends it was quite common for the Freight livery 86/4 to be used, as they were spare
Equally, these locos shared both freight and parcels duties

For a short period the ETH was isolated, but this proved impractical so was reinstated (and same applied to the Class 90)

This all ended when the Cross Country franchise was awarded
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: davidinyork on October 09, 2018, 07:57:45 PM
Quote from: Intercity on October 04, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
Class 91s were used with Mk4s, however when testing may have been seen with Mk3s albeit not in revenue service.

Don't think so - 91s are ECML locos, and always have been. When new some of them worked for a short time with modified HST sets in place of the power car at one end (the one at the other end was fitted with buffers), until the Mk4 sets were available.

The Mk3 loco-hauled sets / DVTs worked on the WCML, so the locos would have been those already suggested - i.e. 86/87/90 mostly, with 47/4s for diversions or on timetabled services to non-wired locations (e.g. N. Wales coast).

The Mk3 DVTs were also extensively used with mk2 aircon sets on the WCML.
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: davidinyork on October 09, 2018, 09:02:48 PM
Quote from: Lindi on October 09, 2018, 08:44:42 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on October 09, 2018, 07:57:45 PM
Quote from: Intercity on October 04, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
Class 91s were used with Mk4s, however when testing may have been seen with Mk3s albeit not in revenue service.

Don't think so - 91s are ECML locos, and always have been. When new some of them worked for a short time with modified HST sets in place of the power car at one end (the one at the other end was fitted with buffers), until the Mk4 sets were available.

During testing the Class 91s were used with MK3 sleeper stock, Lab 6 or 10 and a HST power car acting as a DVT

Images and more details on

http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_2.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_2.htm)

http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_3.htm (http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_3.htm)

None of which is relevant to someone modelling a WCML mk3 passenger rakes.
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: Intercity on October 09, 2018, 09:13:02 PM
The original question was a suitable loco to use on a Mk3 push pull rake with a DVT, so the testing pictures are relevant as they show a 91 is compatible with MK3s, a bit of rule 1 as it isn't prototypical though (but it wasn't asked for actual prototypical imitation)
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: njee20 on October 09, 2018, 09:26:06 PM
The 91s arrived before the mk4 coaches and DVTs, so they were used in service for a while with a set of mk3 coaches and an HST power car in place of a DVT, so you could prototypically use a 91 with Swallow mk3s and a Swallow power car for c1990 ECML operations!

Edit: as David said above. Missed that :doh:
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: MJKERR on October 09, 2018, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: Lindi on October 09, 2018, 09:30:03 PM
Quite correct is has nothing to do with the OP. It was just correcting your incorrect reply to @Intercity (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6050)
Both replies are actually correct, both took place

Testing started with just the Class 91 locos, as these were delivered first
These used RTC coaches and three Mark 2 coaches, and later expanded to include Mark 3A Sleepers along with four modified HST Power Cars

Electrification between Kings Cross and Leeds then allowed Class 91 locos to be used in passenger use, but still not enough Mark 4 coaches had been delivered
To progress driver training three HST sets had the TGS converted by fitting buffers and TDM jumper cables
An additional two HST power cars were modified
When the other four HST power cars were released from testing three further TGS were converted, but it was found that the buffers were not required so only had the TDM jumper cables fitted
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: crewearpley40 on October 09, 2018, 11:02:24 PM
think wecould check :


http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8199 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8199)



i do remember sets being diagrammed to cover cross country liverpool / manchester - exeter / paignton /  maybe plymouth - manchester and other summer saturday -

can a certain  retailler based in the merseyside area not have any eg   dapol


i did google n gauge intercity livery locos and scroll down the list .

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40855-loco-hauled-mk3s/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40855-loco-hauled-mk3s/)]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40855-loco-hauled-mk3s/[


diagrams included c1985 and give info on sets used and diagrams but i cannot think today of anything other than what has been posted already - was thinking class only whatever shunted the mk3 at euston or other terminuses / terminii

this was amended as could not think of the word late at night
Title: Re: Locomotive selection for my Mk3 push-pull set
Post by: MJKERR on October 09, 2018, 11:58:22 PM
Quote from: crewearpley40 on October 09, 2018, 11:02:24 PM
i do remember sets being hired in to cover cross country liverpool / manchester - exeter / paignton /  maybe plymouth - manchester and other summer saturday -
They weren't hired in, it was part of the diagram and timetable as they became spare at weekends
This in turn released the cross country sets for other diagrams and weekend maintenance (the only time it could be carried out)
Some of the cross country sets operated from Monday 05:00 right through to Saturday 22:00, so programming maintenance was a nightmare due to the length of the routes involved