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Author Topic: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains  (Read 28299 times)

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Offline red_death

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #255 on: October 19, 2017, 10:57:34 am »
Sorry no idea what Model Rail have published! Can anyone enlighten us?

As far as we are concerned the majority of the CAD is complete but we need more orders to proceed to tooling - we are planning on getting a 3D print done (which might arrive in time for Warley).

Cheers, Mike



Offline Ben A

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #256 on: October 19, 2017, 11:24:58 am »

Hello all,

As we have made clear at shows and here, the 320/321 project is struggling.

When we offered it we quickly reached our minimum level of expressions of interest.

However, since then fewer than half of those who expressed an interested have actually placed an order.

Originally I thought this might be because people were holding off until seeing the CAD drawings, or until we rationalised the liveries we were offering.  But the CAD drawings are now here:

Class 320:


Class 321:


DTCO:


I can see that some may be waiting to see the Pendolino before committing, so we are going to give it until Christmas and then review the situation.

Or am I missing something?   If you're someone who expressed an interest, but haven't ordered, is there a reason?  Something about the CAD drawings, or the model specification?  If so, let us know!

However, once the Pendolinos have been distributed and (hopefully) admired we can't really justify keeping hold of the money that those who've ordered this model have placed with us if it isn't going to happen.

It would be a shame, but we have to be pragmatic and both Mike and I are uncomfortable with the idea of holding on to money with no tangible end result for too long.

We have provisionally obtained permissions for other EMU models, but if the 320/321 fails I think these are unlikely to happen in the immediate future.

Hopefully, the Farish 319 will still appear though, and I will make do with one of those!

Cheers

Ben A.



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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #257 on: October 19, 2017, 11:35:26 am »
It may very well be the case that there is a slowness of comprehension that an expression of interest was not an order.

I assume you have an email file of those who expressed interest, so why not do a specific mailshot reminding them and asking them to confirm an order or indicate they will not be buying.   In that way you will get a much clearer picture, rather than waste time and funds.

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #258 on: October 19, 2017, 11:38:01 am »


Hopefully, the Farish 319 will still appear though, and I will make do with one of those!

Cheers

Ben A.

Honestly Ben if your 320/321 does not go ahead I would expect Bachmann to pull the plug on the 319 too. The last report was that it is still in the research/drawing office phase. It is not so long ago that the Class 350 was widely available at heavily discounted prices, and if there is not an appetite for more modernish EMUs then why would they keep going with the 319? I hope my analysis is wrong, that your EOIs turn into orders, and Bachmann is convinced to continue with the 319. ;-)  My EOIs did turn into orders.
Mike

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #259 on: October 19, 2017, 11:50:04 am »
I'm tempted to order a second, as I hope that helps push things through a little.

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #260 on: October 19, 2017, 12:17:31 pm »
Just a thought guys (from a still inexperienced N gauger but an EMU lover).........

If the Bachmann 319 (or the Revolution 320) all of a sudden appeared available to order, I'd be hitting the "buy it now" button immediately.

Is our hobby really on its knees to the extent that crowd funding initiatives are the only way to ensure its survival? Like I say, I'm still a novice, I'm asking a question rather than criticising anyone.

Alec.
 

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #261 on: October 19, 2017, 12:24:34 pm »
I think it's more that we're into niche models that have a sufficiently questionable viability that the mainstream brands shy away from them.

The 320 is a good example of an 'un-sexy' but staple of many routes in the UK, the 319 is another I'd say. I've ordered one (maybe two, can't honestly remember), and I'd potentially order another one to help the project along, but I'm not as excited about it as some other models, as it's just "another EMU", and I wonder if that proliferates.

It's obviously disappointing that EoIs haven't converted to orders, not least because it undermines the entire EoI process for future efforts. I, for one, certainly hope it happens, not so much for the 320 itself, but for other future models, particularly now Ben's teased us slightly!

Nick

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #262 on: October 19, 2017, 12:33:32 pm »
Just a thought guys (from a still inexperienced N gauger but an EMU lover).........

If the Bachmann 319 (or the Revolution 320) all of a sudden appeared available to order, I'd be hitting the "buy it now" button immediately.

Is our hobby really on its knees to the extent that crowd funding initiatives are the only way to ensure its survival? Like I say, I'm still a novice, I'm asking a question rather than criticising anyone.

Alec.
 

I too am very much a novice in the field, but my reading of the situation is this;

The big manufacturers are looking for a good return on investment, I'm guessing in the region of multiple thousands of £ per model. If they can't see that, they won't pursue it. The smaller manufacturers, niche manufacturers if you will, have lower overheads, lower return expectations and are more "enthusiast" in their outlook which makes their models viable when the big boys think not.

That said, you can't expect the smaller manufacturers to make a loss, so if the numbers don't add up, it won't happen. Recently on here there have been a couple of "surveys" for proposed locos, both of which fell well short (I'm guessing a bit here as I have no idea on thresholds, but I'm guessing 100'ish units ain't gonna cut it) of a viable level. There is a hard core of enthusiasts for any EMU, DMU, 10000 or Falcon, but it has to have a broader appeal to be a viable project.

Just my thoughts. Long may the little guys keep trying.

 :thumbsup:
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Offline red_death

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #263 on: October 19, 2017, 12:35:59 pm »
Just a thought guys (from a still inexperienced N gauger but an EMU lover).........

If the Bachmann 319 (or the Revolution 320) all of a sudden appeared available to order, I'd be hitting the "buy it now" button immediately.

Is our hobby really on its knees to the extent that crowd funding initiatives are the only way to ensure its survival? Like I say, I'm still a novice, I'm asking a question rather than criticising anyone.

I'd turn the question around and say that I don't think crowd funding is a reflection of a weakness in the market, just an opportunity to use new funding methodologies to get models to market. Tooling for something like a 3 or 4 car multiple unit is considerably more expensive than say a loco.  When you couple that with uncertainty about the size of the market for MUs then why would a company invest a very considerable sum in tooling?

The beauty of crowd funding is that it should prove (or disprove) the existence of the market for a particular model and take away the risk of tooling something that people don't want to buy.

In reply to Snowwolflair - yes, we do and we've tried that previously (though before the CAD was complete) and we need to do it again.

Cheers, Mike



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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #264 on: October 19, 2017, 02:26:17 pm »
hi ben,mike

it would be a shame if this is cancelled, because of the uptake after the expressions of interest , but these are my thoughts on it, i have the pendolinos on order and they run primary on the west coast line. so from london to glasgow they can run along side a pretty large variation of trains and settings from cities to countryside, so for instance i can run london midland to scotrail and it doesnt look out of place and from 2002 time period till now , where as if now in the cold light of day i have to pick a 321/320 say in scotrail livery then change to london area or vice versa its wrong without work/debranding/repainting on a unit that could cost £300 quid / and although i didnt do the expression of interest i only recently signed up for some and then i am now still thinking is it right / or right livery , this was my overiding reason above the others
from whats been said on hear and from others the most popular liveries sofar make sense and also i think that the heavy discounting on the farish 350 may not have helped , yes i know its a different unit but when i can get them and have done at £60 for the london midland colours its only me and other train people i know that would tell the difference if they are in the same colours
just on a another note just how far away are we from going ahead over all is it touch and go , or really not going to make it, i am happy to swap around liveries but that wont increase the order overall unless i commit to more but then i suppose i would want different running numbers.

nobby
 


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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #265 on: October 19, 2017, 02:29:12 pm »
Just a thought guys (from a still inexperienced N gauger but an EMU lover).........

If the Bachmann 319 (or the Revolution 320) all of a sudden appeared available to order, I'd be hitting the "buy it now" button immediately.

Is our hobby really on its knees to the extent that crowd funding initiatives are the only way to ensure its survival? Like I say, I'm still a novice, I'm asking a question rather than criticising anyone.

Alec.
 

Hi Alec,

Mike has answered this point well, but I would add this: the hobby isn't on its knees at all; arguably more models are coming to market, and there are more opportunities, than ever before.

However, for a long time the major manufacturer in our scale was of the view that modern electric units would not sell.  This appears to have been borne out by stocks of the Class 350 Desiro (a lovely model) still available some 5 years after launch.

Crowdfunding offers like-minded enthusiasts a way of coming together to get models that otherwise probably would not see the light of day.  I can't say for certain that if this model fails, another 321 won't appear some day, but it seems pretty unlikely.

One last thought: I don't think there is a huge difference between hitting the "Buy it now" button or pledging.  Yes, the model isn't ready to be shipped immediately but you can pay in installments and when it does arrive you won't suddenly need to find the cash...

Just a thought....

cheers

Ben A.



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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #266 on: October 19, 2017, 03:57:59 pm »
from whats been said on hear and from others the most popular liveries sofar make sense and also i think that the heavy discounting on the farish 350 may not have helped , yes i know its a different unit but when i can get them and have done at £60 for the london midland colours its only me and other train people i know that would tell the difference if they are in the same colour

The Pendolino isn't a great comparator, it has a more limited operating area and timeframe than the 320/321, but has the benefit of being a 'flagship' train, which was my point about the 320/321 being "just another EMU". It was also the first Revolution model, which I don't doubt encouraged a few folk to buy them, either as 'rule 1' purchases, or purely to support Mike and Ben.

Not sure I understand your points about unbranding etc, most people have a layout which represents a specific geographic area and they'll buy the appropriate model, or they won't care, and they'll buy the one they like the look of. If you mean that you can have a Pendolino and choose to operate it on a Scottish themed layout one day and London suburbs the next then I suppose you're right, but I'll wager the number of people doing that sort of thing is minuscule.

Whilst the comparative price of a 350 may be a factor (I think I've got seven 350s, in part due to their staggering value), I don't really buy into the "only train people know the difference", at the end of the day, the market is solely 'train people', we're not trying to convince your man on the street to buy one of these, and where does that logic stop? A 60 looks like a 66, a 67 and a 92 if they're all in EWS to your man on the street!

Like I say, I really do hope it goes ahead, it would be interesting to know vaguely how close we are and whether I need (purely altruistic you understand) to buy another one!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 03:59:21 pm by njee20 »

Offline red_death

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Re: Class 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #267 on: October 19, 2017, 04:24:31 pm »
We completely agree that it is "just another EMU" - that was part of the point of doing it!  Our feeling was that of the potential groups of MUs it was the one with the best chance of succeeding at the time we announced it.  We'd love for it to happen as it opens up so many other possibilities - not just obvious 20m EMUs, but the whole concept of some of the workaday units that anyone modelling the last 40-50 years needs.

In terms of how close - as we've said previously we don't really like to say.  Not because it is desperately sensitive (it isn't) but our feeling is that for everyone (like yourself!) that is prepared to say oh go on I'll have another, there are also people who will say I'm not going to order as it won't happen.  Let's just say that at the moment we would need a decent chunk of people who said it was of interest to translate that into an order.

Now that we have CAD (and a 3D print coming) we are hopeful that things will pick up but certainly the clock is ticking and the surest way for it not to happen is for people not to translate expressions of interest into orders!

Cheers, Mike



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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #268 on: October 19, 2017, 04:44:16 pm »
Thanks Mike. For clarity when I say "just another EMU", I certainly don't mean it to be disparaging, the appeal is in their ubiquity, if not the excitement of them!

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Re: Clas 320 and 321 EMUs proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #269 on: October 19, 2017, 05:00:58 pm »
hi njee20

You said The Pendolino isn't a great comparator, it has a more limited operating area and time frame than the 320/321, ok fair point and i dont disgree longer time period however consider this, pendolino  (2002-2016 in pretty much same livery on WCML and routes off , and test run on ECML  , now pick 1 livery in 320/321 any one and apply the same , yes the units have a longer time from from construction but once you add liveries this wipes it out , i agree with mike this is a very useful family of emu units. (technically isnt the pendolino an EMU and so are almost all new trains coming on to the network, we still consider the pendolino to be ultra modern image  yet is 15-16 years old , would be nice to get a IEP 800 some time in the future but as manufacturers say emu,s dont sell i take take they mean this train as well.

 

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