Driver only trains - safe??

[D1042 Western Princess]

I am writing here as a retired Guard/Train Manager who worked for BR, Thames Trains and FGW on everything from loco and coaches, HSTs to 166 DMUs, along with various Southern electric EMUs both in Guard and Driver Only operation and my opinion is a firm no DOO is not 'safe'.

I feel that the railway/Department for Transport is only considering the operational side of the 'argument' - but that is only one aspect.

I feel on any train where passengers are carried there must be a member of staff who can be contacted in order to deal with the everyday questions e.g. "Where do I change for Oxford?" to lost property, passengers behaving badly (loud music or other anti social behaviour) to even threatening others (one of my last trains before retirement was carrying a man with a knife threatening other passengers; he was arrested but had a Guard not been there to alert the police?).

I believe that there are many points which are simply not being taken into account - the Guard on a passenger train does much more than close doors and goes back to his newspaper which, from the reports I'm reading, seems to be what some sections seem to think.

That's one of the most sensible, lucid discussion points I've heard since this whole sorry episode began last year.

One other aspect which I didn't mention - with many unstaffed stations around the network older, or 'disabled' passengers often require help joining/alighting the train and, with all respect to the Driver grade they are unlikely to be in a position to help - in any case they are not supposed to leave the cab when the train is on a running line unless for certain laid down operational requirements such as contacting the signal box via a signal post telephone for example.

[Sprintex]

That is a good point, especially with so many unmanned stations these days.


Paul

[Chris Morris]

Speaking purely as a paying passenger I think it is good to have a guard on a train. It is someone who can contact authorities in the event of a problem and someone who can offer knowledgeable advice regarding connections etc.

Regarding safety, I would think that on a lightly used three car service with proper equipment doors could be safely operated by the driver. Conversley I can imagine that a rammed six or more car commuter train running in pouring rain almost certainly needs someone who can clearly see the whole train to operate the doors safely and ensure that nobody is doing anything stupid which might not be picked up on camera. Surely the fact that a pair of eyes can see far more than a camera is important.

Guards do of course vary. There are some who do their job diligently and check everyone has the correct ticket and others who can't be bothered to sell you a ticket even when you ask them. This happened to me not long ago when the platform machine was broken.

[javlinfaw7]

How long now till we get driverless trains?

[austinbob]

How long now till we get driverless trains?

I think we've had those for some time with Southern trains...

[Sprintex]

 


Paul

[edwin_m]

If you're not prepared to take the ORR as an unbiased body then I suggest you go into the RAIB reports and look at the number and consequences of accidents involving "platform train interface" issues and whether the trains in question were DOO or guard operated. 

You will then need to normalise these against, ideally, the number of times passengers board/alight DOO versus guard-operated trains per year.  Unfortunately I don't think any statistics are available on that, but table 12.12 in the link below gives passenger journeys by train operator and estimates can be made by knowing which operators use DOO (although unhelpfully DOO Thameslink is bundled with non-DOO Southern as GTR). 

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/22056/passenger-rail-usage-2015-16-q4.pdf

If you get any useful results then please share...

[pctrainman]

It's easy, you stick to the facts about railway procedure and leave out the whys and wherefores of who made the rules and whether it ties in with your own beliefs or not And in so doing totally ignore the truth , yep that figures these days .

[Snowwolflair]

How long now till we get driverless trains?

the DLR has been unmanned since 1990 having initially "Train Captains" on the first line prior to this.

It brings me back to properly designed systems, fit for the task.

[Buffin]

... Regarding safety, I would think that on a lightly used three car service with proper equipment doors could be safely operated by the driver. Conversley I can imagine that a rammed six or more car commuter train running in pouring rain almost certainly needs someone who can clearly see the whole train to operate the doors safely and ensure that nobody is doing anything stupid which might not be picked up on camera. Surely the fact that a pair of eyes can see far more than a camera is important....

Excluding DOO on London Underground then?

And other countries presumably have it?

[JasonBz]

The Safety aspect as much mentioned by the ORR is to give a specific slant on the issue, to suit the argument for DOO.
Like Greg Western Princess states, "Safety" on a train is about much more than meeting operational requirements.

When the Driver is the only member of staff on the train, and is locked away at the front (one hopes!) who exactly is going to stop and or assist.....*
Vandalism
Assault
Theft
Robbery
Passengers fighting
Ticketless travel (generally carried out by people of an anti social nature)
Anti-social behaviour
Passengers taken ill

Who is going to offer advice, assistance and generally make the journey as pleasant as practicable.


I have all the above incidents happen on-train, the worst case where a man got 30 months jailtime for his crime. HadI not been there he would have  been free to walk away from a pretty serious matter.

[acko22]

Ok well we all know where this topic stems from,

I have travelled all over the UK now on pretty much every operator in the last 12 months, the one this that has got me is a massive over sight that in the case of Southern and actually Gatwick Express when they say driver operation of the doors then there is still a guard on board.

But away from that I personally think it depends entirely on area I used to travel daily between Altrincham and Northwich to school and many a time it was driver only and that wasn't an issue as it was a relatively quiet service.

But with the services around London in particular they are that busy that having the driver take full responsibility of that is well questionable, as the services are packed although the DLR and LU prove it can be done.
It's a reality Driver only services are coming across the board, but to do that there has to be some money put into the infrastructure, for things like platform levels for wheel chair access and CCTV and monitors for the driver to be able to see the doors based on the platforms.

As for the other secondary duties of Guards well they are pretty much un-replaceable, the only one I think is a matter which effects the railways but is a bigger thing which no one let alone rail staff should have to deal with is Anti - Social behaviour on any level!

[Chris Morris]

Whilst I support guards on trains I'm wondering why we need drivers? Surely with today's technology drivers could soon be a thing of the past.

Best put my tin hat on now .

[Snowwolflair]

Whilst I support guards on trains I'm wondering why we need drivers? Surely with today's technology drivers could soon be a thing of the past.

Best put my tin hat on now .

This raises an interesting question for the future. 

Driving a train is largely a rules based task (see DLR) and as with self driving cars, rules based AI is well advanced and getting better by the day.

Checking for random dangers to passengers when closing doors is actually a more complicated thinking task so much harder to automate.

So projecting forward ten years, why aren't drivers desperate to get to close the doors to save their jobs in the future, as we return to the DLR Train Captains.

[dannyboy]

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this subject, being the cynical so-and-so that I am am, surely it ultimately boils down to money? If you have two people doing a job each, (in any industry), and some bright spark comes along and decides that one person can do both jobs, the bright spark gets rid of one person, tells the other person that he has now got extra responsibilities and immediately cuts his wage bill in half  . But the above is really off topic - sorry.