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Author Topic: W1 Hush Hush  (Read 8019 times)

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Offline Komata

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 03:33:26 am »
I see that a 'Garratt' was mentioned in an earlier posting. Any details?

 Thanks'
"TVR - Serving the Northern Taranaki . . . "

Offline msr

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2016, 05:31:28 pm »
Derek Rutherford has been hard at work creating the streamlined version of the W1. He has two types, the valenced one is based on a Minitrix A4.



The non-valenced version is based on the Farish A4. This one began life as a blue streak with red front bogie wheels (!) from eBay.


Derek converted this by extending the cab, mounting a new trailing bogie, respraying and lining. The paints used were: Phoenix P100 BR Loco Green pre-1954, Humbrol Satin Black 85, Railmatch Satin varnish, transfers by Fox.




Very convincing!

Online Dr Al

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2016, 05:49:14 pm »
Nice models, similar to mine back on page one of this thread; though I extended the boiler also.

In BR days it had a non-corridor tender unless being modelled before April 1948 - not sure if it had BR livery Jan-April 1948?

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline msr

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2016, 08:45:32 am »
Thanks for the comments, Alan. The livery on the model was inspired by the photo on page 89 of William Brown's book on the Hush-Hush, dated 31 July 1948 and attributed to the Ken Hoole Collection.

The photo appears to show a lack of lining below the cab window - we initially tried it with lining but it looked wrong, so off it came!

Online Dr Al

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2016, 09:35:01 am »
Interesting - did it have a corridor tender then? If so, I wonder when it was changed - definitely lost it for most of its BR days from my readings and photo searches - I can't quite find the ones I used online now (was a few years ago), but this one is indicative as whilst not showing the rear, it shows the top enough to show no corridor section and also the footplate that runs along the tender base was only present on the non-corridor versions.



I am tempted to do one again at some point, this time based on a Dapol A4 rather than the more dated Farish model....

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline east anglian

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2016, 09:39:33 am »
W1   cab   lining   also   on   page   94   in  the   same   book,    cannot   be    sure   about  the  corridor  tender  but  the   original   W1   ran  with  a   corridor  tender   and   I   would   assume  it    was   kept   on   the   same   locomotive   throughout,    I   believe   it   was   fitted   with   disc   wheels   and   is   still   in   use   today   on   the   A4    Union   of  South Africa,    I  was   also    informed   that   it    ran   at   a   later   date   with   the   kitten   on   the   ball   of   wool   and    may   have    had   the   cab   and   tender   lining    added,
Im   not    sure   on   these   points   but   I   do   my   best
East    Anglian

Online Dr Al

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2016, 10:00:38 am »
W1   cab   lining   also   on   page   94   in  the   same   book,    cannot   be    sure   about  the  corridor  tender  but  the   original   W1   ran  with  a   corridor  tender   and   I   would   assume  it    was   kept   on   the   same   locomotive   throughout,    I   believe   it   was   fitted   with   disc   wheels   and   is   still   in   use   today   on   the   A4    Union   of  South Africa,    I  was   also    informed   that   it    ran   at   a   later   date   with   the   kitten   on   the   ball   of   wool   and    may   have    had   the   cab   and   tender   lining    added,


It did have full standard BR early crest livery, with normal cab and tender lining applied as in the photo above as well as:



And below shows the early crest, lining not clear because of the muck, but it's there:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/7492828160/in/gallery-78719580@N06-72157654553035958/

Later it got BR late crest before withdrawal:



The tender was also definitely changed - I have photos of this (somewhere) and read reports of it changing at an overhaul April-June 1948. Tenders were often swapped about on Eastern I believe.

Other modellers seem to confirm this - most of the BR livery ones I've seen, for example the colossus of OO modelling who is Tony Wright's one:



EDIT- found this page where the derailment of 60700 shows clearly the tender it was towing at the time - non-corridor.

http://dominionofcanada.tumblr.com/post/102185954189/10000-60700-built-at-darlington-works-1929

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Malc

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2016, 04:21:02 pm »
My dad worked on the LNER and had a framed photo of the hush-hush when it was number 10000. Although it was in black and white, the loco looked silver and I always assumed it was painted like the Silver Link, Fox etc.
I'm not sure if life is passing me by, or trying to run me over.

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2017, 07:36:54 pm »
I've recently done some repair work to what I'm guessing is a Derek Rutherford W1 no 10000 as first built, wow aren't they an attractive model.
I was really taken by the scratch building on a Farish A3 with brass sheet and the detailed intricacies added
My question is simple, has anybody got around to making a kit body yet?
Kind regards from Fred

Online Dr Al

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2017, 10:11:35 am »
My question is simple, has anybody got around to making a kit body yet?

Sadly, the answer is no, not that I'm aware.

New traditional material kits (i.e. whitemetal or brass) seem to be a virtually non-existent happening in N now. It's a shame, as with all the new chassis options from new tool models there's a lot of potential.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Atso

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2017, 10:45:04 am »
Sadly, the answer is no, not that I'm aware.

New traditional material kits (i.e. whitemetal or brass) seem to be a virtually non-existent happening in N now. It's a shame, as with all the new chassis options from new tool models there's a lot of potential.

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan,

While not traditional materials, the feedback I've received regarding my 3D prints was that it was the current cost of current donor models that was off putting to many people (even at current 'bargain' prices) and hence why sales are next to non-existent - not because of the nature of 3D prints which is what I'd initially suspected. I suspect that this is one of several factors that have contributed to a lack of development in N gauge locomotive kits.

I'd love a W1 but can't afford Mr Rutherford's ones (at least not until I find a new job!) but designing one myself is quite far back in the queue of things I have to do. If/when I get around to one, it'll most likely be in original condition as I've still not managed to successfully CAD the Bugatti nose - which is a shame as I'd love to do a streamlined B17 as well! I could try and use an existing rtr A4 nose but there were slight differences and successfully matching the body profiles between a donor and print is really an awful lot of time, work as well as numerous test prints to get the two close enough to be viable.

Online Dr Al

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2017, 11:49:19 am »
While not traditional materials, the feedback I've received regarding my 3D prints was that it was the current cost of current donor models that was off putting to many people (even at current 'bargain' prices) and hence why sales are next to non-existent - not because of the nature of 3D prints which is what I'd initially suspected. I suspect that this is one of several factors that have contributed to a lack of development in N gauge locomotive kits.

I understand that, though it's not so different than in the past - most had to shell out for a new loco to take the chassis from back in the day. Given the number of kit models I've seen with old Farish chassis, clearly there were more folk willing to do that then than there are now.

3D prints are an area that is still generating new kits, but there are a lot of older models that could be updated and reissued with options for new chassis. Instead we essentially have to buy secondhand ones and rebuild them. I've done that extensively to get models that simply can't be bought any more - J52, Fowler 2-6-4T (current build) and Garratt (although Lytchett Manor have since re-released this).

But I think there are just less people making things in general, more and more on the "buy, unbox, moan" brigade.

I'd love a W1 but can't afford Mr Rutherford's ones (at least not until I find a new job!) but designing one myself is quite far back in the queue of things I have to do. If/when I get around to one, it'll most likely be in original condition as I've still not managed to successfully CAD the Bugatti nose - which is a shame as I'd love to do a streamlined B17 as well! I could try and use an existing rtr A4 nose but there were slight differences and successfully matching the body profiles between a donor and print is really an awful lot of time, work as well as numerous test prints to get the two close enough to be viable.

Just use an A4 - the differences will be subtle enough at the front end. Where you need to get it right is the rear end with an smooth unbroken footplate etc - my W1 experience says that's far more noticable.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Dorsetmike

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2017, 12:02:09 pm »
We did discuss kits back in early August

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38400.msg458642#msg458642

The main problem would seem to be wheels and possibly a suitable tender drive; Colin Heard is closed until next week so can't run any ideas past him re wheels and drives. Apart from the 2mm people does anybody know of a producer of N gauge wheels, obviously Colin must either produce his own or has a reliable source.

The loco chassis need not be a problem if we can use the same method as UM, a keper plate grooved for the axles. Etched brass coupling rods would not be a problem, however valve gear could be more of a problem so maybe initially restrict the models as do UM by modelling locos with inside cylinders, thus no visible gear. Loads of 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s to choose from, I can think of 6 ex LSWR types & more than 6 ex SECR/SR, bound to be plenty more from other companies except possibly GWR, mostly outside cylindered 4-6-0s which have already been modelled.


Perhaps one of our 3D experts could say if viable bogies could be produce by 3D print.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 12:04:00 pm by Dorsetmike »
Cheers MIKE


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Online Dr Al

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2017, 12:28:33 pm »
It's an interesting read.

But the fundamental sentiment seems to be the same - "can someone else please design us a kit for x/y/z". I think in reality this is basically not financially viable for the majority of prototypes out there.

The difference in my impression is that in the past seems to be that folk had a pretty limited choice, so they either build from scratch or kit and make something work themselves; or just don't have it, and don't moan about it. Now it seems very few want to build something themselves or even attempt it, making a catch 22 of blaming lack of experience for having a lack of experience.

It's just sad that we see so few saying "I want X loco, and I'm just going to make it from what I have available", given that the range of what's available now is so much larger than back when so many of the early whitemetal kits were first produced.

Whitemetal still has a place IMHO - a lot see it as cruder, but with brass detailing parts it can look really good, and has the massive advantage of solid weight which can be a real problem for light 3D prints.

If we wait for everything we want to be made as a kit we'll never get it I'm afraid - scratchbuilding and modding is the only credible route to many prototypes.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Atso

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Re: W1 Hush Hush
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2017, 02:38:30 pm »
The only wheels that were produced by a small supplier were the old Beaver wheels that you use Mike. As you know they've not be produced for years now but (other than the oversize flange) hold their own quite well against modern offerings in looks. I know that a few of 2mm modellers experimented with 3D printed wheel centres for use with the 2mm Association tyres but this doesn't seem to have been successful.

I believe that Colin at Union Mills has his tyres turned for him but the plastic insert representing the spokes I think is done in house.

In theory a 3D printed chassis or bogie is possible in some of the finer materials (to get the tolerances) but I wouldn't want to even begin guessing what the lifespan of said chassis would be (other than very short!). Alan Cox played around with a motor bogie produced in 'Strong White and Flexible' by Shapeways but this wouldn't appear to be the material to use despite it's strength and cheap pricing. FUD seems to be ok for wagon and coach bogies and I've not experienced any significant wear with mine so far but I wouldn't trust if with a working mechanism or coupling rods.

I think Alan has hit the nail on the head regarding a large number of possible prototypes out there. I've produced one or two bits for others in the past at a low price because I've been assured that they would be great sellers only to find that I have sold one or two total over three years! If you think about the time taken to research the subject, taken to source drawings, correct any known errors on the drawings, measure up everything from the drawings and create the CAD, you can easily be looking at a couple of weeks work (absolute minimum with easily sourced and good references) to produce a loco or coach/wagon body print. That's not taking into account any money spend on purchasing the reference material in the first place and definitely not costing all the time taken up to that point.

Pre-grouping subjects are (usually) wonderful looking prototypes but many didn't make it as far as nationalisation. If you assume that the total N gauge market is around 10,000 modellers (twice the size of the NGS) and that c. 60% of the model steam, that'll give you 6,000 potential customers. Now if c. 25% of those model pre Nationalisation (based on some conversions with manufacturers regarding livery sales) that'll bring that number down to 1,500. So that's potentially 1,500 customers which would be great but how many of those would be prepared to build a kit? I'd suggest that number would be less than 10% and now you've also got to consider that (keeping with the grouping era for simplicity) there were four main railway companies all (with a handful of exceptions) operating different locomotive - some of which were tied to a geographical area for all their lives.

From a purely personally perspective, when I started Atso-Cad, I was simply trying to share some of my own models with similarly minded people - my own interests cover the LNER and specifically the GNR, GER and GCR sections with a splattering of NER thrown in. My own prints have many many hours put into getting them as right as I can (and even then someone is sure to find something I missed!) and with only a couple of exceptions are of prototypes I personally wanted. I have no problem producing other things as 3D prints but this would either need to be covered by somebody commissioning the design or a 100% guarantee that I'm going to sell 50 to 100 models as a minimum (as my own markup on Shapeways is minimum to keep my prices comparable to the likes of Langley) to cover my costs and time. To give an indication how likely I think it would be to sell that number of models, I don't think I've sold 100 3D printed models on Shapeways since I started there several years ago and all I do with the sales I do make is, more or less, covering the costs of the Atso-Cad webpage.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 02:51:54 pm by Atso »

 

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