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Author Topic: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List  (Read 9336 times)

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Offline davidinyork

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2018, 04:42:26 pm »
It's possible. Would be an odd choice though. IMO one of the reasons the 350 didn't sell better was that you need 3 decoders to convert it to DCC.

Changing to Next18 actually worsens that due to a lack of cheaper Next18 decoders.

Unless they leave the 6-pin decoders in the driving cars for the lights, and put a Next-18 in the motor car allowing sound? Doesn't seem that likely, but they have done at least one 00 Gauge DMU with an 8pin in the driving car and a 6-pin in the trailer, as I recall.

Online Dr Al

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2018, 04:46:39 pm »
I completely understand why people dislike price increases, but comparing the discounted costs of a 350 produced in 2012 (?) with a new production run is misleading - they are being heavily discounted to clear stock but a new production run in new liveries will cost significantly more than it did 5-6 years ago).  The major price increase of a re-run are not typically someone making more money but simply increased assembly costs (it depends of course on how many runs a model is amortised over).

I guess with such large price increases, the reason this is aired is that this is a model that's fully tooled, and therefore there's minimal tooling cost to spread over a new run (some pad print tooling for livery I guess, plus any maintenance cost on existing tooling), but there seems little evidence Bachmann acknowledge this by using any margin there to temper price increases a bit.

DCC sound - fitting in a Next 18 socket/decoder and speaker will remove some mass but it shouldn't be too detrimental for most locos.  I don't know what margin Bachman got on the £60 price increase for the DCC sound fitted 40 but I can't imagine that it is a massive cash cow for them (certainly not compared to the costs of new tooling to fit sound), so I suspect it is them finally realising the demand for factory sound fitted N gauge exists (see how quickly the 40, Castle and DMU sold)

I think that's the cash cow point - less that the margin is much higher, rather that they can shift the stock much quicker than the standard fit non-DCC sound models. The Castle and 40 have shifted most or all of their (presumably 1008 as in the past?) production units already; plenty of stocks of standard models about. Add to that the strategy of only fitting a minority with sound means that some of those sounds sales will be to transplant into the other livery variants. They've realised it's a good way to up turnover of stock.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline crepello

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2018, 04:53:55 pm »
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue

Arg! So close, but 55015 has to be in two-tone green for me.  A dearly missed friend was kind enough to let me drive (ok, play with) a 7 1/4 inch version which he would have been livid to see in blue!

That said, its nice for others that this model is going to be "First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale". I will have to stick to my orginal plan of re-numbering the current "Pinza" model one day.

Skyline2uk
Not sure whether the assertion about the FP Deltic has been corrected elsewhere yet, but Poole-based Graham Farish did 55009 Alycidon.

Online red_death

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2018, 05:00:54 pm »
I guess with such large price increases, the reason this is aired is that this is a model that's fully tooled, and therefore there's minimal tooling cost to spread over a new run (some pad print tooling for livery I guess, plus any maintenance cost on existing tooling), but there seems little evidence Bachmann acknowledge this by using any margin there to temper price increases a bit.

Which is why I said that the tooling amortisation is important - if you amortise it over more than one run (which I suspect Bachmann do - why would they not given that they intend to produce multiple runs of things) then the tooling cost would be the same for the second run as the first.  Unless you know how many runs the tooling is amortised over then you can't assume that a re-run has no tooling cost.

For example:

Tooling cost = £100k
Amortised over say 3 runs = £33k per run vs amortised over 5 runs = £20k per run (the actual amount doesn't matter as the point is the charge to each production run will be the same for the production runs that are included in the amortisation period).
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.

I think that's the cash cow point - less that the margin is much higher, rather that they can shift the stock
That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 05:02:02 pm by red_death »



Offline Carmont

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2018, 05:04:42 pm »
I have to say, I hope the sound fitting doesn't become too widespread. I'd rather it was kept similar to DCC, in that models are produced ready for sound, rather than it becoming all or nothing.

I fully accept the chip and the speaker can be removed and sold on, but that's not really the point. The outlay has to be found first of all to purchase the model. In tht regard, I'm glad the blue 40 was the sound fitted one.

Je suis pro choix

Offline Dalek

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2018, 06:35:13 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Cheers
Craig

Offline davidinyork

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2018, 06:39:41 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

Offline Dalek

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2018, 06:48:13 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

Thanks David.

I see you can also get sort of "intelligent" sound that works without pressing a multitude of buttons to play various sounds based on how you are driving, idel, revs up etc. I much prefer that idea, is that a Next-18 only thing or can you get this with other sound decoders ? Do all decoders use the same function keys for the same functions ? Horn, brake squeal etc ?

Sorry for going a bit off topic  :sorrysign:

Craig

Online njee20

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2018, 07:00:03 pm »
All sound chips will have a load of sounds that just work all the time - engine starting, revs increasing/decreasing, brake sound etc. You then have the other Ďad hocí noises accessed via functions buttons; horns, couplers, doors etc. These are not standard function keys, but can usually be remapped.

Offline woodbury22uk

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2018, 07:46:32 pm »

Re: re-tooling locos to accommodate speakers etc I'd be concerned about loss of mass too. The old (non-DCC friendly) Dapol 66s were great haulers, then they removed a load of material to make way for a decoder and they're now nowhere near as good, indeed verging on inadequate I'd say. No idea what the 47 is like, but would be a shame if they went on to compromise locos like the 60, which can still manage prototypical trains with ease.

They will invent traction tyres to improve adhesion, though seem to work well on my Kato locomotives and TGVs/Eurostars with 16 cars. Think I should get my coat and hat........
Mike

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Offline Dsolds

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2018, 09:18:13 pm »
Just read this entire thread and found it very interesting indeed. Diesel isn't my thing but it's really cool to see all the different options available now, especially compared to what I remember in OO as a kid. Probably just increased my diesel knowledge 500% as well.

Overall though, as a newbie in N, I think it's good to see the manufacturers investing in new models, even if some are only minor tweaks. It hasn't always been that way. I also understand the gripes about increased costs of DCC with sound. Those parts cost pence to make but the integration of it all has a cost which increases the price to everyone, not good if you don't especially want sound or are a DC guy. Just being DCC and sound ready means tooling changes so it has to add cost to the base DC running unit.

As for all those numbers you guys are on about, I doff my virtual cap to you. I'm still learning and really I just play trains compared to the real modellers amongst you all.

Having said diesel isn't my thing, that Midland Pullman set looks handsome. Anyone know the going rate for a kidney?  :laugh:

Offline Roy L S

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2018, 10:17:38 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

The Zimo 6 pin plug and play sound chip may not be that hard to fit in a 31 although the microcube speaker may need to be located in one of the cabs. I have done a 24 this way and to be honest with just a touch of dirt on the windows you would never know.

Roy
Roy

Online Dr Al

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2018, 11:53:20 pm »
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.

It's interesting to consider, and there's a fair amount of info out there to hypothesise with.

Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].

So that does bring us back to Bachmann - if 3 or 4 livery applications pays tooling off, then basically the first 'batch' of liveries delivered must mostly cover it, and that's what I was really meaning, but perhaps was excessively sloppy with terminology. This would imply Bachmann need to sell between 3024 and 4032 (assuming a run is still the 1008 it was reported to be in the past) to pay the tooling cost. This seems credible - if it were double that, 8 runs say,  then absolutely none of their tooling would be fully paid off yet (seems highly unlikely?). So whilst the 350 may be a less good example (though there's been 3 runs already, but clearly many unsold), there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:

Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
and I'm sure there are plenty others if some analysis was done. There's been no obvious drop (or hold) in prices on later runs of these after the first (or second) batch as Dapol did.

Whilst it sounds like it's just price grumbling, it's actually not so much - this is a real problem that folk in OO are starting to flag up more and more, and it's relevant to N too, is that models that have clearly had tooling paid off that are still being sold at high prices (like the Hornby Railroad range and the classic being the perennial Hornby 0-4-0T that now sells for £35, and has been around and re-run countless times, and is available in a train set for only £10 more) - these would be perfect way to help try to attract folk to the hobby, as current prices are certainly turning now them away - there are a fair few OOers now grumbling at this.

It was the same when Bachmann were churning out old Poole designs - the tooling was certainly largely paid for there!

Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with - but I fear it will actually ultimately have a real detrimental affect on the uptake of the hobby in the medium to long term. 

That will hurt everyone.

That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!

Whichever wording the sentiment is the same - they've basically liquidated that stock unbelievably fast as a result of it being DCC sound - 2 or 3 weeks and you can already barely find one. Certainly a way to quickly get the cash back in.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Snowwolflair

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2018, 12:58:33 am »
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.

It's interesting to consider, and there's a fair amount of info out there to hypothesise with.

Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].

So that does bring us back to Bachmann - if 3 or 4 livery applications pays tooling off, then basically the first 'batch' of liveries delivered must mostly cover it, and that's what I was really meaning, but perhaps was excessively sloppy with terminology. This would imply Bachmann need to sell between 3024 and 4032 (assuming a run is still the 1008 it was reported to be in the past) to pay the tooling cost. This seems credible - if it were double that, 8 runs say,  then absolutely none of their tooling would be fully paid off yet (seems highly unlikely?). So whilst the 350 may be a less good example (though there's been 3 runs already, but clearly many unsold), there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:

Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
and I'm sure there are plenty others if some analysis was done. There's been no obvious drop (or hold) in prices on later runs of these after the first (or second) batch as Dapol did.

Whilst it sounds like it's just price grumbling, it's actually not so much - this is a real problem that folk in OO are starting to flag up more and more, and it's relevant to N too, is that models that have clearly had tooling paid off that are still being sold at high prices (like the Hornby Railroad range and the classic being the perennial Hornby 0-4-0T that now sells for £35, and has been around and re-run countless times, and is available in a train set for only £10 more) - these would be perfect way to help try to attract folk to the hobby, as current prices are certainly turning now them away - there are a fair few OOers now grumbling at this.

It was the same when Bachmann were churning out old Poole designs - the tooling was certainly largely paid for there!

Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with - but I fear it will actually ultimately have a real detrimental affect on the uptake of the hobby in the medium to long term. 

That will hurt everyone.

That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!

Whichever wording the sentiment is the same - they've basically liquidated that stock unbelievably fast as a result of it being DCC sound - 2 or 3 weeks and you can already barely find one. Certainly a way to quickly get the cash back in.

Cheers,
Alan

A quote from Sir John Trelawny "God forbid we be thought cheap".  i.e. If you give them it cheap once they will expect it always to be cheap and you will struggle to get a descent return on your future products that have much higher production costs.

Online Dr Al

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2018, 01:35:11 am »
A quote from Sir John Trelawny "God forbid we be thought cheap".  i.e. If you give them it cheap once they will expect it always to be cheap and you will struggle to get a descent return on your future products that have much higher production costs.

I don't think there's any dispute that prices have had to rise because of increasing production costs - that's all well known and less of the point - the point is more about the future, why long tooled models that have had many runs have the same RRP as new toolings etc. It's becoming a fairly big talking point in other scales.

Having said that, the price level has been broadly similar right through the transition from English production to supposedly cheaper Chinese production (which is now not so cheap) - and I wouldn't have said any of these was "cheap". Given they cut costs moving to China at some point in the past 20 years they've clearly made big profits from their range, even if the squeeze is on now - likely in the 2000-2007 is period when they were punting old tool Poole derived models.

I do wonder what the prices would need to reach for a significant number to say "I'm not buying that, it's too much". £200 a loco? £300? more? Clearly some already are at that point - it's a lot if you are on average UK salary of ~£22,000 after tax......

Manufacturers know their market though - is primarily older, with much more significant disposable income than that, and that's what they are playing to. One wonders though, once much of that generation has passed, in 20 years say, where we'll be - I think manufacturers might start to see a significant decline in their fortunes. Hornby already seem to be making some big mistakes and costing themselves big money as a result.

DCC sound'll be dirt cheap by then I'd hope though! I'd expect it to be built in as standard with a switch to turn it off for those who don't fancy it!

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

 

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