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Author Topic: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale  (Read 6410 times)

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Online ntpntpntp

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2017, 08:59:31 pm »
Like almost all new Minitrix locos, it come with a mandatory but in my case unwanted decoder.

Replace it with a blanking plate and sell the decoder on.  Going by the instruction sheet it's a socketed decoder not hard-wired.

Can't say I've noticed DCC decoders becoming mandatory in Minitrix by any means, but there more factory fitted models than there used to be.
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline GScaleBruce

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2017, 09:23:44 pm »
At the risk of thread drift, Marklin have stated that, with very few exceptions, they will only produce locomotives with decoders from now on. They cite, in part, the number of warranty repairs they get from incorrectly installed or incompatible decoders as an unacceptable cost to their business. I haven't yet taken my V90 apart to see how easy it would be to remove the decoder (simple, I imagine) but I don't know whether it would require a blanking plate (I assume so), certainly one isn't supplied as a spare, presumably because the locomotive is designed to operate on analogue with the decoder fitted. Anyway, best not to allow this (very interesting) thread to become another analogue vs. digital debate.

The Minitrix CC6500 got a pretty good write up in NBahn Magazin, although apparently the roof mounted insulators and wiring haven't been updated to current standards. Don't know how obvious that is in practice?
Bruce
My layout - Steinheim am Main

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2017, 12:03:07 am »
Hi.

If I'm not wrong, few mention have been made to some french TEEs that only run inside french territory.

I thought I had said quite a lot about internal French TEEs in this thread, and its precursor. In fact France was famous for having so many internal TEEs. It was businessmen who pressurised SNCF into keeping or creating TEEs because they provided a full traditional restaurant car service, at a time when SNCF was phasing out full seated restaurant cars because of the influx of Bar Corail.


.

 
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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2017, 12:11:08 am »
I'm resisting the CC6500 for a number of reasons, partly because it says "Capitole" rather than "Aquitaine" or "Etendard" (easily fixed, I know),

I still think it is very poor that a major manufacturer cannot produce the loco with exchangeable headboards. Kato have been doing 'choose/fit your own' numberplates for decades (eg on the BLS Ae4/4). All that is needed is two small holes on the loco, and a choice of headboards with small lugs that you can push into the holes. To cater for those who want to run it without a headboard or on a non-TEE train (after all that's what happened 95% of the time...), Trix could provide the SNCF roundel to fit in the same holes

The Minitrix CC6500 got a pretty good write up in NBahn Magazin, although apparently the roof mounted insulators and wiring haven't been updated to current standards. Don't know how obvious that is in practice?

Many French 'N-istes' aren't that keen on the model due to the headboard issue, and the French are fastidious about roof detail, so aren't usually happy on that score.

For many  viewers (especially non-expert visitors at shows) roof detail is too technical and therefore I'm not sure if knowing if it is right or not on a particular loco worries that many punters.

.
.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 12:17:20 am by Gordon »
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline RailGooner

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2017, 10:49:24 am »
I ordered this lot back in July but was happy to wait for a single shipment upon release of the carriages.



Now I've received it, I'm very pleased with it, I think it's lovely. Not my main area of interest, just a shiny bauble that caught my eye. So any inaccuracies will go unnoticed by me. 8)
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Offline GScaleBruce

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2017, 06:17:18 pm »
More pictures, please!
Bruce
My layout - Steinheim am Main

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2017, 03:33:36 pm »


The Fleischmann BB-15006 in the background I will discuss next time.


The BB15000 entered service in July 1971 and were used on the Paris - Strasbourg route in TEE days, hauling the TEE Stanislas, and TEE Kléber virtually throughout there existence (both the TEEs were launched in 1971).

BB15006 was the first one delivered in the red and silver livery (BB15001 - 5 were delivered in green). BB15006 entered service on 15 November 1972

The Fleischmann BB15006 was made in vast numbers and hundreds remain available second hand today.

However it counts as a 'goof' in that they etched a TEE symbol into the side of the model (which is flipping difficult to remove). On the real BB15000s the TEE symbol was a separate plate that was hung onto lugs on the side of the loco, but this proved impractical in daily use and the idea was dropped very quickly, and was hardly ever used except for the first press launches and a few days/weeks thereafter.

Thus the model 'out of the box' represents an accuracy factor of virtually nil, unless one's layout represents a few weeks in 1971!

Even with the TEE logo scratched off, the livery still only accurate for a period of around 10 years as the silver was replaced by grey, and subsequently all the early BB15000s had their ventilation grilles modified.

BB15006 caught fire and was withdrawn in 2005, but interestingly BB15001 - 5 are still in service


As the last posts were about the Capitole CC-6500 and Grand Confort coaches I thought I would continue with the BB-15000 that I had promised, although there isnʼt much for me to add after Gordonʼs post.

Some good photos, interior shots and technical spec sheets of the Grand Confort coaches can be found in this thread on a French forum:
http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71261





Fleischmannʼs 7361 BB-15006 was produced from 1977 to 1988. While the chrome TEE logo was not in use for long it certainly did attract buyers who otherwise would not have considered a French loco (like my grandpa who had bought this model about 35 years ago). I think it is still looking very good for a model introduced 40 years ago.

More recently, Minitrix has also produced a BB-15000 in TEE livery, no. 12134 from 2009. This
– like the latest production of Capitole CC-6500 and Grand Confort cars – is painted with concrete grey instead of the earlier silver and also replicates a newer series of the BB-15000 with a more vertical windscreen for improved cabin space.


© Trix


Only after my above post I learned that I had no suitable coaches for the BB-15000. I had coupled it to a DB coach for the photo but this class never hauled German TEE cars. (The only opportunity to see a TEE with German cars hauled by a French locomotive was the TEE Parsifal behind the CC-40100.) Also, my Italian TEE coaches (in France used on the TEE Ligure) werenʼt hauled by the BB-15000. The most suitable TEE cars for the BB-15000 are the Grand Confort coaches (which I donʼt have) although they are not the only option: stainless steel cars of the Mistral 69 type were used in the final years of the TEE Kléber, and the TEE Goethe of the early 1970s was equipped with the older Mistral 56 stock.




For a 1982–88 TEE Kléber my BB-15006 is probably in a too early livery, and Kléber doesnʼt sound great in my ears (Kleber in German is “glue” or “adhesive”) :no: – so I have decided that it is hauling a TEE Goethe in this picture.

The Mistral 56 cars are not available in N but LS produced the Mistral 69. They can be distinguished by their doors – on the Mistral 56 they are at the car ends while on the -69 they were moved over the bogies, with the toilet windows between entrances and car ends.
Main difference in the consists were the generator cars, a former baggage car (first painted dark blue, then, as TEE, red) for the Mistral 56, and inox stainless steel for the -69. The red generator car would be at the train end in the above photo, as it was on the real train either before or after Metz.



TEE Goethe, Metz, May 1973 – from https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?017,6352680

The Goethe was a TEE between Paris and Frankfurt and operated only from 1970 to 1975. There were complaints from passengers (or the DB) about the old Mistral coaches but the SNCF would rather discontinue the train than upgrade it to Mistral 69 or Grand Confort stock. Between Paris and Metz it was hauled by the BB-15000, and between Metz – where a loco change was required anyway because the train has to reverse – and Frankfurt by a DB locomotive of classes 181.0/1 (prototype 181, two-system AC; made in N by Hobbytrain) or 184 (four-system AC/DC; Hobbytrain or older Minitrix), and later also by 181.2 (production 181, two-system AC; Roco).


TEE Goethe with 181 218-9, 1975 – © Dietrich Seegers, Dietzenbach
from http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com/tee-goethe.html



And now, on to a train that indeed used Mistral 69 stock – the TEE Paris–Ruhr in the foreground:



Mistral 69 cars were made by LS Models, and while they are great looking, I find a price of €50 and more for one coach just too much. LS has released many variants with differing details like beige or black window frames, absent or present class numbers and pictograms, or green instead of red window bands. Despite the many versions, the cars seldom show up for sale.

A 10-car TEE Cisalpin was made exclusively for Pirata which also included some Mistral cars of the SBB.
A complete train, a 6-car TEE Paris–Ruhr with a four-system BR 184 “Europalok”, was made for Hobbytrain/Lemke in two sets, H22057 (loco + 2 cars) and H22058 (4 cars):





I bought both sets separately – Set I H22057 I got earlier, new old stock and about half original price. When I opened it, I was frustrated to find an open car instead of the compartment car (Abteilwagen) A8tu I had expected from the text on the box. Oh no, a swapped car! Soon I found out that the compartment car was designated A8u, and the A8tu is indeed an open car. (I think, the t stands for travées – bays – to denote that there are no fully enclosed compartments.)

So, the A8tu on both plastic and outer cardboard box is correct, just the Abteilwagen part is not! The French site referencement-n.com which lists all French rolling stock also repeats the wrong information with une voiture 1cl compartiments. :no:

The 4-car Set II H22058 I won later in an ebay auction from Florida (the packet was lying around for almost a month at our customs post office and then, in addition to the import tax, also having to pay a €10 fee for that service! :veryangry:), and was more than I wanted to pay – but what to do with just two coaches, and when would another Set II appear? :worried:

Again, Hobbytrain got my blood pumping! I expected to receive one Abteilwagen and one open Großraumwagen (I had already noticed that they had confused A8u with A8tu again), and after opening had two Abteilwagen in hand. As before, the inner boxes turned out to be correct with both H22058-2 and -3 saying A8u. So, in spite of whatʼs written on the outer boxes, Set I actually contains the one Großraumwagen A8tu open car, and Set II both Abteilwagen A8u compartment cars. :doh:



From right to left and front to rear:
H22057-1 184 003-2 (available individually as H2883 – the very same prototype was also produced by Minitrix decades ago as nos. 2938/12938), H22057-2 generator/open 1st A4Dtux,
H22057-3, open 1st A8tu, H22058-1 dining car Vru,
H22058-2 compartment 1st A8u (red interior), H22058-4 half bar/open 1st A3rtu, H22058-3 compartment 1st A8u (yellow interior)

The coaches look great, but now that I have a few, I donʼt find the LS Mistral cars well made. The plastic used for the bogies doesnʼt keep its shape and is bowing outwards, so that the inner axles fall out on a few cars. Even after pushing the bogie sides together, these axles would not stay there for more than a few minutes. Not only when putting the car from the box onto the track but even when rolling them just a little to couple them together, an axle would slip out and jam between bogie and underframe. Not even with the oldest and cheapest cars from Bachmann or Lima have I ever seen anything like that before (the Pirata FS TEE cars from the same factory – Modern Gala – also have a tendency to lose their axles but at least not while on the track).
I donʼt think that I will buy more models from LS. Maybe the newer products are of better quality as Modern Gala has closed down its factory in 2015, so newer LS models have to be made somewhere else.


The TEE Paris–Ruhr operated between Paris and Dortmund (later shortened to Düsseldorf which prompted a name change to TEE Molière in 1973) and had used German VT 08 and VT 11 and French RGP diesel trainsets before changing to Mistral stock in the summer of ʼ69. I havenʼt found a picture of the Paris–Ruhr with Mistral coaches on the internet to show here.

The BR 184 (E410) was Germanyʼs answer to the French CC-40100 four-system locomotives. Only five were built in 1966 and ultimately proved to be a technical failure. The so-called “Europaloks” didnʼt really see much of Europe – only western Germany, eastern France, and Belgium. On the TEE Paris–Ruhr they were only operating from 1970 to Winter 1971/72 between Liège (Belgium) and Germany. Their electronics were frequently damaged in the SNCB 3kV DC network because of voltage fluctuations (with peaks at 4 kV), so the DC equipment was later thrown out together with the two DC pantographs, and they continued (with more success) as dual-voltage AC locomotives into France, like the 181 prototypes (E310).
The inner pantographs were for AC, above cab 1 for Germanyʼs 15 kv 16.7 Hz and above cab 2 for Franceʼs 25 kv 50 Hz system. Both outer pantos were capable for 1.5 kV (France and Netherlands) and 3 kv (Belgium) DC but other than a few test runs they were never used in the 1.5 kV network. Both outer pantos can be found in use under the Belgian 3 kV DC wires, so usually the rear one was raised there.

The modelled 184 003-2 was in active service until 2001 and has been preserved, although in its later ocean blue/ivory livery as replicated by Minitrix 12893.

Other than the Paris–Ruhr, the BR 184 has also hauled the TEEs Parsifal and Goethe.


TEE Parsifal with 184 112-1, 1978 – © Martin Welzel, Essen
from http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com/tee-parsifal.html


« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 11:14:19 am by Hiawatha »

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2017, 01:06:15 am »
Between Paris and Metz it was hauled by the BB-15000, and between Metz – a terminus station where a loco change was required anyway –

Metz is not a terminus (ie dead end) station, but Paris - Saarbrücken trains have to reverse.

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2017, 01:16:50 am »
stainless steel cars of the Mistral 69 type were used in the final years of the TEE Kléber, and the TEE Goethe of the early 1970s was equipped with the older Mistral 56 stock.

For a 1982–88 TEE Kléber my BB-15006 is probably in a too early livery, and Kléber doesnʼt sound great in my ears (Kleber in German is “glue” or “adhesive”) :no: – so I have decided that it is hauling a TEE Goethe in this picture.


I think you would get away with a BB15006 in TEE silver for 1982. 1982 photos exist of 15015 (which was the same bodyside style as 15006) in what looks like silver not concrete grey hauling the Kléber.

Also, photos exist of  the BB15005  in green like the other Fleischmann original model (BB15001) hauling the Stanilsas in 1982, with Mistral 69 but with a single Grand Confort in the consist! 

by the way if you pronounce Kléber in the French way (clay-bear) it won't sound like the German word for glue (clay-ber)

.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2017, 01:36:24 am »
The Mistral 56 cars are not available in N but LS produced the Mistral 69. They can be distinguished by their doors – on the Mistral 56 they are at the car ends while on the -69 they were moved over the bogies, with the toilet windows between entrances and car ends.

Strictly speaking the Mistral 56 cars have been made in N, by both Lima and Arnold - a long time ago. They can be picked up occasionally on the second hand market.

The doors are not the only way to distinguish Mistral 56 from Mistral 69. They are totally different designs. The Mistral 56 coaches were part of the 'DEV Inox' family built in the early 1950s. The Mistral 69 were part of the 'TEE stock' family  (comprising 'Mistral 69' and 'PBA' ) ordered from 1961.

Compared to the Mistral 56 DEV design, the TEE stock Mistral 69 coaches:

were longer
were taller with more of a dome effect on the roofline
had a more 'streamlined' appearance
had longer windows (making the appear much more rectangular than the almost square DEV)   

.
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2017, 11:11:25 am »

Metz is not a terminus (ie dead end) station, but Paris - Saarbrücken trains have to reverse.
I misinterpreted the German text Kopfmachen ("making head") in Metz, as this is usually associated with a terminus (Kopfbahnhof). :-[
I have changed this line now.


Quote
Strictly speaking the Mistral 56 cars have been made in N, by both Lima and Arnold - a long time ago. They can be picked up occasionally on the second hand market.
I thought we were talking about N scale models and not ancient artifacts. :no:


Quote
The doors are not the only way to distinguish Mistral 56 from Mistral 69. They are totally different designs. The Mistral 56 coaches were part of the 'DEV Inox' family built in the early 1950s. The Mistral 69 were part of the 'TEE stock' family  (comprising 'Mistral 69' and 'PBA' ) ordered from 1961.

Compared to the Mistral 56 DEV design, the TEE stock Mistral 69 coaches:

were longer
were taller with more of a dome effect on the roofline
had a more 'streamlined' appearance
had longer windows (making the appear much more rectangular than the almost square DEV)
All well and good but on a typical photo taken from an angle like the above from the Goethe in Metz, having longer windows isnʼt really noticeable because of the distortion, and without a direct comparison it is also not visible that one coach would be longer or taller. Even when Mistral 56 and -69 cars were coupled together (as on the Arbalète) those differences are not clear in most photos (certainly not for me without expert SNCF knowledge). But that the doors are in different positions most people can tell even when only a part of the car is visible – at least good enough to recognize a Mistral 56 car. The differences between PBA and Mistral 69 are more difficult to spot but I will see about that once PBA cars are made in N (that would be something for Minitrix along with a CC-40100 as Märklin has made them in H0).


Quote
if you pronounce Kléber in the French way (clay-bear) it won't sound like the German word for glue (clay-ber)
Hmmm, I donʼt know – sounds like a frenchman with a strong accent talking about glue. ;)




Yesterday also saw a link on 1zu160.net to a recent facebook post from Mikadotrain. They showed the first rough samples of the upcoming Mikadotrain/REE Modeles SNCF TEE (whatever the correct name for it is – RGP 1, RGP 825 or X 2770  :confused2: ) a few days ago at the Railexpo 2017:



from https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=219480745259469&id=101934363680775

This was announced two years ago as a new model for 2016, and at that rate we shouldnʼt expect it before 2025. :sleep:

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2017, 01:25:38 am »

I thought we were talking about N scale models and not ancient artifacts.

The old Lima (less so the Arnold version) DEV Inox coaches are not as far off scale as many people think. The 'overscale' appearance is all down to the very high bulky chassis of the era. It doesn't take more than about an hour to modify a coach if you have the relevant parts (for example bogies taken from the 2nd generation Lima DEV AO)

.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2017, 01:58:21 am »
facebook post from Mikadotrain. They showed the first rough samples of the upcoming Mikadotrain/REE Modeles SNCF TEE (whatever the correct name for it is – RGP 1, RGP 825 or X 2770  :confused2: ) a few days ago at the Railexpo 2017:

This was announced two years ago as a new model for 2016, and at that rate we shouldnʼt expect it before 2025. :sleep:

Most often referred to as an RGP 1
RGP = Rame a Grand Parcours (long distance train)
1 = single engine. This was to distinguish from an RGP 2 which had two engines as the motor coach was effectively a modified X2400 railcar

Yes the RGP is delayed. The REE Mikadotrain tie up is a mix of artisan and 'off the shelf' manufacturer, and it is traditionally not easy to get N gauge items to market in France, as the N gauge market is complex and corporate legal rules are also complicated.


 

Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
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First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2018, 04:21:43 pm »
Menzels Lokschuppen has added details of the RGP 1 versions which are now scheduled for late 2018. :thumbsup:
4 Versions (2x TEE red/beige, 2x green/beige), price €239.

NW130: X2778+7778, red/beige, triple headlights, Depot Lyon-Vaise
NW131: X2773+7773, red/beige, triple headlights, Depot Noisy

(NW132: X2722+7722, green/beige, twin headlights, Depot Metz-Sablons
NW133: X2737+7732, green/beige, twin headlights, Depot Batignolles)

Although the green/beige were not TEE, they were often coupled to the TEE RGP on the domestic part of the TEE routes within France.

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2018, 06:21:53 pm »
Menzels Lokschuppen has added details of the RGP 1 versions which are now scheduled for late 2018. :thumbsup:
4 Versions (2x TEE red/beige, 2x green/beige), price €239.


Many, many French N gaugers are waiting with bated breath for this model!

However I have searched the ML site and not found them
.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:45:55 pm by Gordon »
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
French Railways Consultant
European railway expert

First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

 

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