I have just got a beautiful little Farish 3MT tank from a forum member, it is exquisitely detailed and comes with a detail pack which includes vacuum pipes, fireman's tools and host of other small parts.
I thought I'd have a go at fitting some details but my courage has failed me because I fear I would make a right mess of the model. I've rescued a few secondhand 00 models that have been plastered with superglue but N gauge models are really tiny. The vacuum pipes will probably foul the couplings anyway.
I wonder how many of the details actually get fitted or do the rest of you have more courage than I do?
:confused2:
I'm afraid I'm with you, never had the courage or inclination to fit the details.
To be honest, at normal viewing distance, I doubt many people would notice if they're fitted or not.
:) :beers:
I agree with austinbob.
Would any rivet counters like to comment?
I have to agree - in part at least.
Details which i do fit - discs, and vac pipes, snowploughs, etc where there is a no front coupling option (e.g. classes 33, 42, 52)
Details which i do not fit - larger size front bogie wheels which are for display purposes only, front ladders which would get caught up in said front bogies when they negotiate curves, etc
Interestingly i just got an OO Dapol Western in Rails sale. It comes without nameplates fitted so i can fit the ones of my choice (nice). there are fine guide dots on the model to show you where to put the nameplates.
Most of the separate bits come with a warning - for display purposes only. Fit them and the model wont run on trainset curves.
Details which i would like to see and are almost never supplied- discs for steam locos. GWR reporting boxes, etc.
Happy new year
Bob
So far, I've taken 'ready to run' literally. I might get round to doing some, but as my layout will be dismountable, and all stock will have to be put on & taken off each session, bits will inevitably go missing.
I agree. All those tiny parts are simply too small for me and I sure would't see them at normal viewing distance.
I too would be afraid of messing things up.
The parts are too small for me, too. I spent ages yesterday trying to fit the details to the driver's end of an autocoach. Got some in place and was trying to fit the tail lamp when it jumped out of my tweezers into a black hole, never to be seen again. And I doubt that the bits that I did fit will stay in place for long. As some of you might know, I do like photographing my models and that's when the lack of details becomes noticeable. But otherwise I doubt that they're worth the time and trouble of fitting them.
The only "extra" details I have ever fitted are etched name plates. Alas these are not often supplied now.
However, I have now started sourcing plates from third parties, plus depot plaques and arrows as needed.
For me this is a simple job that lifts the model and of course doesn't interfere with running.
Skyline2uk
I agree about nameplates, they make a real difference, I ordered a set in August but still no sign of them (but that's another topic)
I've also lost a few bits after they pinged off my tweezers, never to be seen again. The trouble is they are too small to hold between your fingers, I've also tried sticking them to a blob of blue tack and trying to manoeuvre that.
The 3MT is a Southern Region loco and has headcode discs but attaching them to an N gauge lamp iron is not easy either, I may try making some out of a self adhesive label.
Quote from: silly moo on December 30, 2017, 03:12:27 PM
I agree about nameplates, they make a real difference, I ordered a set in August but still no sign of them (but that's another topic)
I've also lost a few bits after they pinged off my tweezers, never to be seen again. The trouble is they are too small to hold between your fingers, I've also tried sticking them to a blob of blue tack and trying to manoeuvre that.
The 3MT is a Southern Region loco and has headcode discs but attaching them to an N gauge lamp iron is not easy either, I may try making some out of a self adhesive label.
I like the idea of SR headcode discs and akso thought about making them from sticky labels. They are so small though. My first attempt, a couple of years ago didn't look too bad until I took a close up photo . Very difficult to make them round!
Quote from: Delboy on December 30, 2017, 02:24:08 PM
I agree with austinbob.
Would any rivet counters like to comment?
Any need for the derogatory 'rivet counters' comment apart from trying to provoke a response?
Yes, I like to fit the extras but respect those that don't want to. I fail to see why it appears to be something to ridicule. I don't criticise anything you do and would never dream of doing so and therefore find your post insulting to all those that like to go the extra mile, after all this hobby covers a vast range of abilities, expectations and enjoyment that comes from a multitude of different things. If people didn't push for more accurate models we'd all still be running old Farish locos with pizza cutter wheels and a generic chassis, perhaps some would welcome this.
You may be saying it in gest but you hung out the bait and I have bitten!
I'm sick and tired of anyone who does anything beyond what is offered RTR being labelled a rivet counter.
^^ agreed.
I fit them when I get around to it, but I don't see why there's any need for derogatory comments.
I haven't even the nerve to glue the number plates on the Japanese locomotives I've acquired!
I wouldn't worry about the 'Rivet Counter' remark, a lot of us would like to have your skill and dexterity.
Quote from: njee20 on December 30, 2017, 03:29:18 PM
^^ agreed.
I fit them when I get around to it, but I don't see why there's any need for derogatory comments.
I doubt Delboy meant his post to be derogatory - Rivet counter could equally well be construed as just describing someone who likes detail.
I always classed myself as a rivet counter when modelling EM gauge and used to add whatever details I could within my abilities. N gauge is a different kettle of fish for me. Detail parts are small, easy to lose and difficult for me to fit. However if others enjoy the detailed stuff then good on emm!!
:) :beers:
i fit the detail parts on about half the locos i have
some i leave with functional couplings at both ends for shunting purposes though
even if you just fit a few of the details and remove the coupling at one end it looks really good i think
if i can't fit all the detail parts after a few attempts i just leave them off
i've just added a snow plough to my class 33 and 27 as well
i don't have great eye sight and it can be frustrating. a pin vice and small pliers have helped me - as well as a good light. like everyone else i have lost some bits on the floor.
it's true that from normal viewing distance you can't really see the detail parts - but removing the coupling at the front end does make a difference.
tim
I never put the details on. Too fiddly for my eyes and clumsy fingers. Too fragile once on - as in my view are some of the details factory fitted, especially when the items are handled at exhibitions . And I really doubt how many are actually visible at normal viewing distances, whether at home or at exhibitions. But to those who can cope with them and are happy to make the effort, I salute you.
I already have a little baggie of unidentified parts I've found around the layout which have fallen off non-modified stock somehow, so in no hurry to increase the potential supply. My priorities are constructing the layout and making sure the trains run (have a backlog of basis maintenance to work through before I worry about details...) But it's nice that the option is there for those who want it.
Quote from: Quinn on December 30, 2017, 03:44:40 PM
I haven't even the nerve to glue the number plates on the Japanese locomotives I've acquired!
Having made a right mess on the side of one Japanese loco with plastic glue, I realised it would be better to use something else in future, probably tiny dabs of a locally-available PVA-like glue which would be enough to hold them in place but can be peeled off if it overflows, and allows later removal of the plates (which usually clip in place).
Applying number transfers (mainly a preserve of Tomix coaches and multiple units) is something I also haven't got round to doing...
Quote from: Delboy on December 30, 2017, 03:55:45 PM
No need to be so touchy.
It was said in jest but if it provokes a bit of debate then so be it.
Happy New Year to all including the rivet counters.
I am not being touchy, you are being insulting with your derogatory comment which you are continuing with. So you feel that is a satisfactory method to provoke debate? You may find it funny but I am sick of people using that phrase just because someone decides to take their modelling to the next level.
If you want to take something out of its box and run it that is fine and I am sure you get as much enjoyment out of it as I do scratch building etc. I just don't understand why you feel the need to poke fun as I certainly wouldn't.
I won't be bothering with this thread anymore so feel free to come back to justify your comments with further 'rivet' digs, I just won't waste time reading them.
Quote from: railsquid on December 30, 2017, 04:41:41 PM
Quote from: Quinn on December 30, 2017, 03:44:40 PM
I haven't even the nerve to glue the number plates on the Japanese locomotives I've acquired!
Having made a right mess on the side of one Japanese loco with plastic glue, I realised it would be better to use something else in future, probably tiny dabs of a locally-available PVA-like glue which would be enough to hold them in place but can be peeled off if it overflows, and allows later removal of the plates (which usually clip in place).
Applying number transfers (mainly a preserve of Tomix coaches and multiple units) is something I also haven't got round to doing...
Currently writing up how I do this, but my preferred glue for plates is Delux Materials Glue-N-Glaze
Gives working time before it sets and dries clear, excess can be removed with a cocktail stick.
Skyline2uk
Let's just drop the 'rivet counter' please. It's not a term I am comfortable with but am also not happy to delete the posts for and against as some would consider it OTT moderation.
Any further posts containing the phrase will be deleted if I see them or they are pointed out to me.
Quote from: newportnobby on December 30, 2017, 04:57:26 PM
Let's just drop the 'rivet counter' please. It's not a term I am comfortable with but am also not happy to delete the posts for and against as some would consider it OTT moderation.
Any further posts containing the phrase will be deleted if I see them or they are pointed out to me.
Here Here big nobby, No need for pidgeon holeing on forums, :thumbsup:
I like to see a C-37 with the plows fitted, in my mind it's what they should have
and if I fit the plow, and remove the front coupling, then why not fit the air pipes etc ?
BUT
that is my choice.
I have no less respect for someone who takes the loco out of the box and runs it, than for the 'rivet counter' who spends hours detailing their loco with every detail possible.
running trains is FUN, or at least IT SHOULD BE !
so if you want to take the loco / coach / wagon out of it's box and run it, and it gives YOU pleasure, that is fine by me.
so, please, give up on the derogatory comments, it's a hobby, for fun, and if you can't cope with that, then I feel sorry for you.
rant over
I too am quite happy to dispense with the fitting of detail parts. Big hands and poor eyes make poor tools for such work. And as for rivets, well, I don't count 'em cos I can't see 'em!
But I have tremendous admiration for anyone who can add all the little details without making a mess like I would do.
For those of you who want Southern discs for headcodes, these are available from BH Enterprises as an etch; I use gel superglue to attach them to lamp irons (for my ER GE section steam!).
Prime with white primer, and job sussed; but it can be a bit fiddly getting them in place and square to the buffer beam.
Martyn
Just out of interest Martyn, how much wiggle time do you have before that superglue sets?
:beers:
Hi Bob;
About 20 seconds, which I find enough; hold the disc with tweezers, add a dab of glue with a pointed stick; place against the lamp iron, and there is enough time to get it straight. I also use this (gel) for fitting the loco pipes, steam and diesel, discussed in earlier posts; I do like fitting these, even though it means we have to turn locos on the table at James St after running in on a service; it also means the coupler is removed at the piped end.
If fitting headlamps, if possible, I drill the bottom and gel glue on to the lamp irons. Gel glue is useful in as much as it doesn't run by capillary action and get onto fingers and glue them to the model :( See some photos of James St for the results (my locos are the one with headlamps/discs).
I like detailing locos and stock, but I'm useless at scenery.........
HTH
Martyn
Well in my humble opinion if you can count rivets in n gauge I envy your eyesight!!!!
Is pizza cutter wheels an offensive term? I prefer Old style.. :heart2: :heart2: :heart2:
Until I have a layout, I don't know how much radius-restricted detail I can fit to my locos, and until I have decided on my rakes of coaches, I have refrained from fitting any details to them as well.
Suffice it to say that once I have a working layout, I will try to fit the ever-growing mountain of detail packs ... eventually, depending on how well I can see by then! ;)
But generally, I appreciate a much detail as is possible. The acquisition of some Union Mills locos in the future may require some extra attention when they arrive.
My excuse for not fitting loco lamps or discs is I like to run varying trains with a wide variety of motive power, keeping to the prototype where possible. Some of the disc codes changed in 1969 but it doesn't affect my transition era. I might consider making some discs but would only affix them with Tacky Wax or something similar.
NPN;
I'm fortunate enough to have sufficient locos to enable me to have 'spares' for each type of train I run, eg express passenger, local passenger, various classes of freight.
I did try tacky wax when running the locos solely on my own layout, with some success, but when they get used for exhibitions, its impossible to avoid losing them. I accept that on occasion on exhibition use it does lead to the wrong headcode lamps, but I still try and get it right........I have also altered the 4-character diesel blind-type headcodes to depict various classes of trains. Most people wont notice or know........
Bob; I use gel superglue nearly all the while now when just needing a 'spot' of glue; I only use normal superglue if a long joint/seam is required.
Martyn
I'm not one to tot up the numbers of minute details (avoiding the 'derogatory term' to stay on the right side of NPN; I might be overweight, but call me 'chubster' in jest, it still has derogatory overtones and we ought to be a little sensitive to certain terms in our modelling world), but I do like to have details that only I know are there, such as signs in the subway of my station where no one will ever again be able to see them. Each to their own... preference or ability.
Although I agree that front vac pipes are not so noticeable from normal viewing distance, I do like to fit such details to some/many of my locos. I think that an out-of-scale rapido coupler is ugly on the front of my beautiful Dapol Western as it pulls my Blue Riband MkIs... so I pull it off. But there's no denying that it looks a little bare after that, so the bits bag comes out. And why not? If I can be bothered to spend an hour of my relaxation time getting frustrated by my ever-decreasing dexterity.
I use superglue gel that gives a little more time and control, having dry-fitted the part first to check no trimmimg is needed. But first I put a blob of blu-tak on the other end, so if it pings the carpet monsters can't eat it, but it's not in the way of the fitting. It's a faff with fine tweezers and some very strong '2.5' reading glasses on top of my normal glasses.
My main peave is that the loco instructions never seem to include a simple diagram for what goes where, and I have to first spend an hour on t'internet trying to find a photo from the front with sufficient visibility and light (with the help of 'exposure' control in my photos app) to discern the positions of the various size/shapes of tiny plastic pipe.
But once it's done, there is a sense of satisfaction from a) the achievement; the triumph over the challenge of the minute task, and b) knowing that, with no ugly coupler, what isn't necessarily visible from 6 feet away actually matches the level of detail of the rest of the 'state-of-the-art' train.
For me it's about making models look as realistic as my abilities permit so I always fit the supplied detail to one end and leave a Rapido on the other. It's always annoying when buying second hand to receive a loco with no detailing pack so I make sure to hoover up any spares I come across!
I always fit as many of the details as possible, those that will clash with couplings are modified where possible to clear, and only left off if they simply cannot be fitted due to a gross clash. Almost all detail bits on steam, and a fair few pipes on diesels can be fitted fine in this way. Often you can be shrewd about glue application - for instance on diesel beams, often the hole goes right through, so you can insert the part dry, and apply a larger dot of glue to the back side of the bufferbeam where it is invisible, leaving a pristine application on the visible side.
I do absolutely concur with theBrighton's comments before - though won't dredge up more - but it does look ridiculous when you see photos of locos with gaping holes in their bufferbeams where a coupling hook should be, and stranger and lacking consistency if it's on a loco that has had other work done to it like a repaint, weathering or the likes.
Even these small detail additions separate a loco from everyone elses - whilst some can be difficult to fit, that's part of the satisfaction of being a modeller, and doing stuff for yourself. If it is a real problem, consider getting someone else to batch fit the details to your models in blocks.
From the secondhand I've bought, it's clear the vast minority of folk bother to fit these - so those who do, keep it up!
Cheers,
Alan
Totally agree with Dr Al in post 34.
Using a magnifying illuminated lamp makes all the difference in my limited ability to fit these parts.
Biggest problem I have is finding decent clear photos of the positioning but maybe that's part of the enjoyment and
a good way to waste time!!
Ian.
Quote from: Farmer chap on December 31, 2017, 02:04:10 PM
Biggest problem I have is finding decent clear photos of the positioning but maybe that's part of the enjoyment and
Flickr is a good online source - often their images aren't shown by Google image search. I've never not found a suitable reference photo on flickr for these kind of things.
Better to use period pics though rather than preserved as some preserved locos have additional air brake pipes fitted that weren't there originally.
Cheers,
Alan
These last few posts with the useful advice have encouraged me to have another go at fitting some details.
You might be able to hear the swearing from Africa :'(
Maybe you're right. Might have a crack at it after my next eye test and new glasses.
I wonder how long it will take to fit details to 80 locos. Oh.. And the carpet monster would have a field day!!!
:-X :beers:
Quote from: austinbob on December 31, 2017, 02:43:26 PM
And the carpet monster would have a field day!!!
Starve the carpet monster by fitting little parts inside a large clear plastic bag.
On the subject of extra detail only I know about: I made a model of the old chapel in Pencader for Peter Blair's railway. His widow donated it to Pencader for their museum - inside the old chapel! When I visited the museum recently I astonished the curators by taking the roof off the chapel to reveal a fully fitted interior. They had no idea, but now that the chapel has a model of itself inside itself, should I alter the model's interior to show a model of itself inside itself inside itself?
Reminds me of the model village in Bourton on Water (I think it is anyway) where there's a model of the model village, in a model village in the model village itself.
You might be able to hear the swearing from Africa :'(
[/quote]
Do not make the mistake I made then, I seem to recall I made a video and left some swearing on if you turned the sound up. I am presently trying to detail my union mills 3f i will see how it goes with my eyesight. Like the tip about blue tack, i might try that.
Quote from: LAandNQFan on January 01, 2018, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: austinbob on December 31, 2017, 02:43:26 PM
And the carpet monster would have a field day!!!
Starve the carpet monster by fitting little parts inside a large clear plastic bag.
Tried that and nearly suffocated :worried:
Yeah - it's an old one but so am I :P
:laughabovepost:
Quote from: class37025 on December 30, 2017, 05:05:20 PM
I like to see a C-37 with the plows fitted, in my mind it's what they should have
and if I fit the plow, and remove the front coupling, then why not fit the air pipes etc ?
BUT
that is my choice.
I have no less respect for someone who takes the loco out of the box and runs it, than for the 'rivet counter' who spends hours detailing their loco with every detail possible.
running trains is FUN, or at least IT SHOULD BE !
so if you want to take the loco / coach / wagon out of it's box and run it, and it gives YOU pleasure, that is fine by me.
so, please, give up on the derogatory comments, it's a hobby, for fun, and if you can't cope with that, then I feel sorry for you.
rant over
i added a few details to a class 37....
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Scruff's_album/Dir_1/main_32388.jpg)
The ploughs took a bit of butchering as I wanted to keep both couplings..
Cheers
Mark