Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases

[Sprintex]

Rock and a hard place maybe, but we have to keep voicing up.

Rich

Why though? Nothing is going to change. Things cost a certain amount to make, whether that's down to Chinese labour costs, exchange rates, transport costs, position of the stars, whatever. Companies need to make a profit on top of that, that IS why they exist in the first place, and I doubt in the case of N gauge that's a big profit, maybe bigger margin for 00? So cost price plus profit margin plus retailer's markup, and I don't see lots of rich model shop owners around either, with so many closing down I guess it's quite the opposite. How do you expect things to be significantly cheaper without the temporary relief from moving production to a poorer country (again!)? What good is "voicing up" going to do when there's little or no room for movement?

In a country where the people moan it's too rainy, moan it's too hot, moan it's too cold, moan it's too windy . . . you get the idea. Just another reason to moan about something you can't change for the sake of moaning, as the British are so good at and well known for. Toy trains are a luxury, if it's too expensive for your income level, don't buy it, simple. I'm in exactly that position at the moment, there's a couple of items I'd like but can't justify after taking a pay-cut to be in a better job with regard to hours and potential advancement. Tough, that's the way it is, no sense whinging about it. I could cry about how Nissan GT-Rs are "overpriced" and "too expensive" just because I can't afford one, doesn't mean Nissan should slash their prices because obviously there are plenty of people out there that CAN afford one. That's life I'm afraid, and moaning ain't gonna change it.


Paul

[red_death]

As someone who sets prices on models (and knows how little margin there is) I sympathise with RST's point, but what I don't see is a solution.

DCC provision costs exactly nothing (sorry may be a few pence for the socket).

Detail can cost something when it means more separate parts, but the reality is that there is a significant part of the N gauge market that wants such detail. Assembly costs are becoming an increasingly large component of model costs (as opposed to historically where tooling costs dominated) so detail does cost to a point but it isn't so much of an additional cost that it would make much of a difference to leave off (and risk alienating folks who do want detail).

Bright ideas always welcome!

Cheers, Mike

[47033]

Interesting thread and while I haven't read through it all, i'd just like to say that the Chinese pay raises may be a contributing factor. However I haven't noticed any other things that I buy that are manufactured in China go up each year like I have with these Farish models. I buy car parts that are made in China and my wife used to work for a company that sourced them from China and the increases over the last few years have been negligible.

This is just an observation on my part.

Jamie

[MKP]

Does the china manufacturing model really work for UK model railways? if you were making 1 million coat hangers, then yes great, but the actual numbers being produced from Farish and Dapol is pretty low, America and Japan (Tomix) have much larger N gauge markets and therefore it makes more sense, Would be an interesting study to find out what percentage of the price is made up of distribution costs, import duty etc etc

[red_death]

Does the china manufacturing model really work for UK model railways?

Would be an interesting study to find out what percentage of the price is made up of distribution costs, import duty etc etc

I've already answered the first question (either earlier in this thread or on another thread).  The simple answer is yes, until you can find the skills, machinery and reasonably low wages elsewhere.  Given that people are complaining about high prices well you would easily triple prices if you tried to bring it back to the UK (even if you could find the skills and companies willing to produce such low numbers).

Distribution - I assume you mean shipping/transport: peanuts compared to the total cost.
Import duty - zero.
VAT 20%
Then any retail margin (variable) / manufacturer's margin.
Production costs
Tooling costs

Cheers, Mike

[JasonBz]

As we go round and round in circles the one point remains clear.

In the early 21st Century model trains were far too cheap and some people got the "collecting habit".
Some years later, ie now, when they can no longer afford to buy everything and anything they "need", they are upset at the manufacturers for raising prices - Almost as if they devilishly lured the buyer into a trap with Loss Leaders 10 years ago.......

[NeMo]

I've already answered the first question (either earlier in this thread or on another thread).  The simple answer is yes, until you can find the skills, machinery and reasonably low wages elsewhere.

This is a crucial point. My rail engineering friend makes this point regularly when people ask "Why don't they just make the locos or multiple units in the UK instead of abroad?"

In that hiatus between BR being prohibited from buying new rolling stock and the privatised companies ordering rolling stock, you had several years where the British rail builders had virtually no business. Many closed down. End result was that those workers went into other industries, or retired, and by the time the market improved, there really wasn't anybody here (apart from Brush) who could still make whole locomotives.

It's the same thing with the models. All very well saying Farish should move back to Poole or wherever, and on paper, it might work out cheaper -- but only once the machinery is purchased and the staff trained, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

On the up side, there are some great UK kit manufacturers out there. I think people should stop worrying about the fact they're going to have to buy fewer ready to run models and instead spend some of their limited money on kits. I, for one, really enjoy looking at layouts with traction and rolling stock that isn't "as seen in the catalogue".

Cheers, NeMo

[PaulCheffus]

On the up side, there are some great UK kit manufacturers out there. I think people should stop worrying about the fact they're going to have to buy fewer ready to run models and instead spend some of their limited money on kits. I, for one, really enjoy looking at layouts with traction and rolling stock that isn't "as seen in the catalogue".
Cheers, NeMo

Hi

Then you get the I can't build / paint kits to the same standard as my RTR stock so I won't bother.

I doubt very few people when starting modelling could manage to do this but with time and practice you can. Most of my kit built stock will stand quite happily against the RTR stuff in fact my scratchbuilt telescopic steel hoods were once mistaken for the Dapol model. I started scratchbuilding around the age of sixteen and I am still learning new things in my fifties.

It all comes down to practice and being able to bin something that isn't quite right rather than continuing with it in the hope it will sort itself out. Best advice I can give is start with the simple kits followed by making simple modifications to them to make slightly different variants. This can then be followed by more complicated kits and finally scratchbuilding.

The best quote I can give is "Do something every day that scares you"

Cheers

Paul

[Portpatrick]

Very  discerning points on kit building and, dare I say, hacking and bashing of kits and RTR.  I have done quite a lot of this, to varying degrees,  over the years, for locos coaches and wagons.  And derived a lot of fun and satisfaction in building them.  Though the fact my hand tremor is worse these day makes me more wary of anything too complex.  But I am certainly still up for the challenge.

I am less sure of the amount out there these days.  NGS wagon kits do seem to be coming back on stream for those of us who are NGS members.  The price has always been reasonable.  But for coaches the Etched Pixels/Ultima range are far from cheap themselves.  Are Mike Howarth's printed paper coach sides still around?  And when it come to locos, most of what is still relatively available need Poole style Farish chassis.  Yes those of us who have a number of these and can spare the bodies, can certainly make use of them.  But otherwise a matter of EBay and its range of prices.  Is anyone making loco kits for modern chassis and bear in mind you will have to pay the price for the complete loco to get that chassis.  I have a vague recollection that Dapol may have issued separate chassis but if so I have never come across them.

[Bob G]

I have started making some of the older kits again - see  here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36060.msg422697#msg422697 for my latest efforts on a Langley E2.

The interesting thing is these relatively crude kits are not cheap any more - they are about the same price as 3D printed items which arguably are to better scale and detail.
The kits often require surgery to chassis. Now I am happy to hack an old Farish 94xx pannier/Jinty/GP tank chassis about, but they can cost anything between £25-50 on EBay or from Hattons, Rails or KJB secondhand. The low profile wheels are always the more expensive chassis.

But would I want to hack about a detailed 3-MT prairie chassis, for example.  Unlikely, at £90 a shot.

Best
Bob

[Jimbo]

Great debate this!  , I don't think the 'high' prices are going to change anytime soon but I do think it (for me at least!) will be a case of make the best of what i CAN afford (either modifying, detailing or leaving as is) and what i've already got, not the same for everyone though of course, personally I have yet to have a go at modifying or kit bashing anything but it seems that might be the route I'll be exploring some of the time.
I suppose I might have the occasional bit of good fortune to pick something up within my budget, all well and good if so  .

[Portpatrick]

Your E2 looks good Bob
Adaptable kit.   My Caley small 044T of the long lived 55124 starts with one of these (passable).  As does a Caley 060 tender engine - yes really.  Though it is very crude, even more so than the Pickersgill 440 from a Compound.  In fact initially the was a Lankey , but my interest moved from north Wales to Scotland, so a little reshaping made it a Caley.

You are so right about being wary of hacking expensive modern chassis.  I was looking at a service sheet for that 3MT wondering if the back end could be removed and the result fitted under a cut down and modified Langley B1 to create the Scottish version of the K2.  A loco I accept will not appear in my lifetime!  I have a body in the doofer box.  But perhaps not!  I have more than one Poole based 264T in reserve whose chassis might do the honours.

Of course taking such a cavalier approach is not for everyone.

[exmouthcraig]

Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

[mod]Political reference removed - against Code of Conduct[/mod]

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months

[Snowwolflair]

Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months

[mod]Politics is a banned subject - see Code of Conduct[/mod]

[Jimbo]

Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months

Politics is a banned subject - see Code of Conduct

Might be Area 51!?