who will take on the class 50 now?

[Chris Morris]

I very much doubt we will see any new N gauge tooling from Dapol in the next few years or indeed the foreseeable future. They are really only interested in developing their O gauge range at the moment. As people pay around half the price of a crowd funded model up front sales are pretty much guaranteed at the point of starting tooling. At this point Dapol would know they would have lost probably 1,000 sales for their model even if they got it out first. If a crowd funding bid was started it would simply not start tooling if Dapol announced they had started tooling.

[njee20]

I think that's a bit of a simplistic view of crowdfunding. What would actually happen is people would back it, Dapol would get theirs out suddenly, half the crowdfunders would scream refund, the other half would be furious their crowd funded one wasn't going ahead because it included the exact model they wanted. The crowdfunding company lose face, and potentially the not insignificant sums invested before tooling commences (if not after).

I think Dapol have totally killed the idea of an n gauge 50 for a good while yet.

[njee20]

Nothing. But why would Dapol do that? they could run a crowdfunding campaign if they so desired. Having someone else does it just means another slice of the cake to cut.

[Yet_Another]

I can think of several reasons: all the usual outsourcing guff, plus someone else to take the heat if it falls through.

[njee20]

Natural = nothing in my OP, stupid autocorrect!

That is true, but it also gives them a very limited market, unless they go on general release, which they'd be insane not to, particularly with something like the 50 where there are more variants than you'd ever want in a crowdfunding campaign. Then why do the crowd funding?

[Intercity]

I'm not really up on the ins and outs of all this but from my simplistic view couldn't a crowdfunder contract Dapol to be the manufacturer and supplier of a crowd funded model, with a contract clause that for a set time they don't general release a class 50, that way the crowd funded model gets produced and released, or have a clause that Dapol could only release certain models that weren't part of the crowd funded specs, of course there is much more to it and hope you understand how I'm trying to put it across.

Basically contracts and timelines to limit, restrict general sales so the crowdfunder gets fulfilled (if worked out the right way it could be a win all round)

[njee20]

Again though, what's in that for Dapol? Ok they get some cash up front, but they then have massive sunk costs in tooling that they can't recoup for a further x years. They also either have to administer a crowdfunding campaign or pay someone else to do it.

Then you've got all the liveries, I really like the 50s, but the only ones I'd actually buy would be a late-NSE or 50007 in GWR green, neither of those were in Dapol's original batch, so I'd not have bought one. Should the crowdfunding campaign cover all of the liveries? If it didn't would others be exempt from the general release ban?

What if dealers undercut the crowdfunded price, as has happened with DJM and the 92?

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of a new 50 and I think Dapol have been very underhand in their "abeyance" message, but I for one cannot see a crowdfunding campaign working for it at all. Happy to be proven wrong, particularly if they do late-NSE!

Clearly Dapol don't see as much of a market in N as they do in O, which is obviously a new market for RTR they're tapping into. I think Chris is right insofar as we're unlikely to see much new from Dapol in N for a while.

[njee20]

But there's still talk (reasonably) of delays before Dapol are able to run their own batch etc. That still leaves money tied up totally needlessly. The benefits are far greater for the consumer than for Dapol.

[Intercity]

To add on and try to expand on my post earlier, what I was trying to put across was a big box manufacturer may decide not to produce a model due to perceived lack of interest, they don't want to put out the cost for a potential lemon, crowdfunding provides the starting line, by having the two working together both parties should be able to win, and the consumer gets the desired models into the market place.

Crowdfunders put out the initial interest feelers.
The models are proposed and put up for funding
(At this point no one is out of pocket)
When the desired funding level is reached models go for CADs
Next up the big box guys are brought in for the tooling
Models are eventually produced

Now as was mentioned before what is to stop cancelled orders and putting the crowdfunders out of pocket, that's where exclusive models come into play, say a crowdfunder got the interest on NSE and BR blue, then those models wouldn't be available to the big box guys, that ensures the crowdfunders don't lose out as the models proposed aren't made elsewhere, the big box guys use the tooling to produce "other variants" and thus have their own exclusives.

I'm sure royalties could even be worked out so that tooling that crowdfunding made possible alway gets something for their use and that could offset anything the Crowdfunders lose by being in a partnership

It would all of course be in a contract that both sides would have to agree to, all in all it's probably a long shot this type of thing would happen, but I'd like to see it if it were possible

[PaulCheffus]

What if dealers undercut the crowdfunded price, as has happened with DJM and the 92?

Hi

Wasn't that a misunderstanding that has now been corrected by the dealer?

Cheers

Paul

[Chris Morris]

I would just love to see someone other than Dapol make a decent class 50. This would remove the opportunity for Dapol to make a future model. I would like to see this because Dapol have effectively blocked new models of both this and the West Country by saying they were developing them for many, many years then pulling out.

[njee20]

What if dealers undercut the crowdfunded price, as has happened with DJM and the 92?

Wasn't that a misunderstanding that has now been corrected by the dealer?

Possibly, as Dave's website is among the worst I've ever seen I can't see what a 92 would actually cost me! Presumably in this context "misunderstanding" = verging on price fixing.

I agree with Chris, it's massively frustrating that Dapol have done this, again! Just waiting for them to decide the Pacers are actually "on hold" now!

[njee20]

Not wanting this to become a tit-for-tat discussion on the merits (or not) of crowdfunding, as that's not overly relevant. If it's the ideal scenario for business why doesn't it happen more often? We've seen a couple of projects come to fruition, with a couple more to follow, both from new manufacturers. We've seen equal numbers of failures. DJM are running multiple concurrent 'streams' admittedly, but he has very widely broadcast cashflow limitations, which is when crowdfunding is good.

The class 50 is "on abeyance until the economic conditions become more favourable", which is subtly different. Dapol aren't saying they don't think a market exists, nor that they don't have the cash to go to tooling, they're saying there are better places to put their money and resources right now where the market will tolerate far higher prices and is perhaps more buoyant, ie O gauge. That's the ideal scenario for business! Perhaps in 5 years time when "economic conditions" are more favourable the market for N will tolerate a higher price and relative production costs will be reduced and they'll pick it back up again.

There are undoubted benefits to Dapol in crowdfunding, insofar as they get money, but there's also an opportunity cost, and I don't think it's the answer for them on this model at this time. They're a small company with limited resources, and are very publicly backing another horse with significantly better odds at the moment. Again, very happy to be proven wrong, but that's my opinion.

[Karhedron]

Not wanting this to become a tit-for-tat discussion on the merits (or not) of crowdfunding, as that's not overly relevant. If it's the ideal scenario for business why doesn't it happen more often?

I think there is an issue of trust. Customers have to have faith in the Crowdfunders and their ability to bring the product to market with sufficient quality. It is not like you can wait until the product has been released and then assess its quality before deciding to make a purchase. Modelers also tend to have an older demographic that is more wary of such risks than younger people who may be more comfortable about crowd-funding initiatives.

I think that RevolutioN and DJM have opened a door here and crowd-funding is here to stay. Whether it remains a niche way of producing models or becomes more widespread remains to be seen.

[njee20]

I hope you're right, I really like crowdfunding as a way of delivering products which might otherwise struggle to be brought to market.

I think the 59 is a more likely candidate to be delivered that way though - I'd have thought it's a more marginal market, which is one of the principal benefits of crowdfunding - you get upfront confirmation of your market. If Dapol (or another company) do deliver a 50 I'd be astounded if it didn't sell well on general release.