Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt

[emjaybee]

Time for my two-penneth worth.

I was fascinated by the original "APT" thread, having travelled on it at 130mph. I digress.

There has to be forum rules. There has to be a dividing line between "look what I'm trying to acheive" and "I've acheived it, want to by one?". I do, however, think that there has to be a bit of consideration to the "grey" dividing line between those running it as a profit making business and those doing it as a hobby who would like to share the fruits of their labour just to be "nice".

I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to flout the rules, I suspect they just don't realise that a particular rule applies to them because they don't see themselves as a "trader" as they aren't looking to make a profit from anything.

I don't think that a topic drifting a little off track is flouting the rules, but I've seen a number where they've been effectively "stamped" on for just that.

Sometimes this forum feels a little like "The Prisoner", it all looks beautiful on the surface as long as everyone toes the line, but beware the white ball if you step out of line just a little.

I too find this forum somewhat "sterile". The moderation can be somewhat over eager, at the slightest hint of disagreement or minor detour of topic, the hand of the moderator appears. I feel the moderators could make their lives a lot easier by just lightening up a little with the virtual red pen. Disagreement is natural, minor detours happen in every day conversation, a forum should represent everyday conversation, should it not?

Some of the responses from the moderators have been somewhat terse, I don't think it's necessary to engage in snippy arguments with "posters". If that happened in other threads, they'd be "moderated". You have the Forum rules, please explain them where necessary, but avoid getting involved in on-forum arguments. That's not necessary and comes across as petty. On a large forum such as this there will always be bitching about moderation. It's going to happen, you need to be able to rise above it, not sink down into it.

On other subjects, this is not an easy forum for some of us to use. Working out where to post threads is a nightmare. There are so many subsections and boards that a large proportion get "moved", that should tell you there is a problem. In some ways this forum is a victim of it's own success, for an "outsider" (newish member), it comes across as quite "clique-y", this is a natural progression, but it makes it difficult to find out information. Someone once told me to basically "go away and find out somewhere else" and I often see people being told "go on look at so-and-so's threads", but if you try to find the item it is in amongst 100's of posts. If you are a long-time member I'm sure you can remember the posts in question, but trying to find them from scratch is a nightmare.

That's all for now.

[Claude Dreyfus]

This forum is now into it's 7th year. It has grown from one guy's vision to being a significant forum with a larger user base. All credit to Tank for his efforts in setting this up and keeping it running. 

However, it has changed over the years - and discussions like this are inevitable, and essential, for the forum to continue to thrive and to grow.

I should add, that if someone is going to effectively ask a member 'well what would you do?', be prepared for them to do just that. As the floor appears to be open; here are some comments - not just for Tank and the Mods, but for members in general.




• Follow the RMWeb lead for moderators and make the moderator accounts anonymous (Mod 1, Mod 2 etc.). I believe at least some of the mods on RMWeb are regular users in their own right, contributing to the forum as users under their own user names. They have separate accounts to do their 'modding' thing... All too often a user who is also a moderator says, or does, something which calls into question their impartiality. I'm afraid I have seen more than one thread where there has been a more intense discussion, and the mods have slammed down publicly on just one of the parties - in some cases wholly unjustifiably.
• Another vote for simplifying the number of sub-forums. Too many threads are shunted about the place, in some cases for rather spurious reasons. If there is ambiguity, you have too many sub-forums
• People get offended - it is called life. To try to ease everyone's ruffled feelings will be a battle you will lose, so just accept people disagree. For what is is worth, I quite enjoy the rumbustiousness of RMWeb where there can be discussions and, yes, sometimes arguments. Sure, read the riot act, but threads do get locked for too early in some cases. Oh yes, and writing your posts in capital letters just emphasises you are losing your argument; please don't do it - it is extremely annoying.
• And finally (whilst we are righting the wrongs of the world), and yes perhaps controversially, when a member throws their toys out of their pram and announces they are leaving, please stop rallying around telling them how valued they are and how they will be missed. In most cases it is because they are having a sulk, and all the well-meaning words do is stroke their ego, but won't stop them from doing it again in the future. I see it on many forums - most are just childish rants that simply should be ignored; however I have seen some absolute humdingers in the past, which are worth it purely for their entertainment value!

There are some on here who are quite waspish - and I can be one of them from time to time. There also those with a sharp, sometimes cutting sense of humour; often the same individuals. These are often the characters - when I see a thread with one of their contributions on it, I am drawn in. You need these characters, they give the forum life and interest. They will argue, they will contradict, they will certainly be direct; but it will be reasoned and well argued. Without them, the forum will be a sterile and soulless place; which would be a tremendous pity.

[austinbob]

Although some people think there are too many categories/sub categories I think it might be an idea to have another sub category under general discussion called 'Rants'.
Threads such as this one could be moved to that sub category so that those of us not very interested in the content of such 'Rants' could filter them out and concentrate on more interesting topics. You know - N gauge and railway stuff and jokes and good natured banter.
Now wouldn't that be nice?

[emjaybee]

Although some people think there are too many categories/sub categories I think it might be an idea to have another sub category under general discussion called 'Rants'.
Threads such as this one could be moved to that sub category so that those of us not very interested in the content of such 'Rants' could filter them out and concentrate on more interesting topics. You know - N gauge and railway stuff and jokes and good natured banter.
Now wouldn't that be nice?

...and I suppose you think this is a helpful interjection?

If you're not interested, then don't read it. You obviously are, as you've posted. It was becoming a constuctive post for the good of the forum, far from a rant.

[Claude Dreyfus]

Although some people think there are too many categories/sub categories I think it might be an idea to have another sub category under general discussion called 'Rants'.
Threads such as this one could be moved to that sub category so that those of us not very interested in the content of such 'Rants' could filter them out and concentrate on more interesting topics. You know - N gauge and railway stuff and jokes and good natured banter.
Now wouldn't that be nice?

Aren't rants for the 'Angry Thread'? Last time I saw it, it was on about telephone hold music and customer service.

Of course we can all sit back and go with the flow. But I hope the contributions to this thread are seen as members trying to make positive suggestions on the future of the forum. Believe it or not we do care about the forum, or we would not be making these comments...

There are a lot of threads that don't interest me, on here and elsewhere. I don't read them, and I can't really be bothered to post on them saying how they don't interest me...that strikes me as being somewhat counter-intuitive.

[emjaybee]

+1

[Yet_Another]

There are some on here who are quite waspish - and I can be one of them from time to time. There also those with a sharp, sometimes cutting sense of humour; often the same individuals. These are often the characters - when I see a thread with one of their contributions on it, I am drawn in. You need these characters, they give the forum life and interest. They will argue, they will contradict, they will certainly be direct; but it will be reasoned and well argued. Without them, the forum will be a sterile and soulless place; which would be a tremendous pity.

Just to add a sterile and soulless note to this: the people described above are generally the ones I ignore. It seems to me that one should replace the word 'you' with 'I' in the above paragraph.

Note to mods and admins: carry on.

[sparky]

Generally the structure of the forum is fine...Perhaps having a folder or sub board or whatever they are called by class in the train surgery section would be helpful eg a board for class 47 or a type of steamer to be easily browsed through if we have a problem with a loco would be welcomed

[Claude Dreyfus]

It seems to me that one should replace the word 'you' with 'I' in the above paragraph.

You may be surprised to see that I fully agree with you on this point. I do need people of this ilk in my life. I need to be challenged and contradicted at times. In fact, in my line of work, it is crucial. If they did not exist, nothing would change. I hope we all want a vibrant place to visit, that evolves and develops.

One little note. Tank I am sure will correct me if I am wrong, but I recall part of the reason for being for this forum was a frustration at a lack of N gauge participation and coverage on other forums. He didn't just carry on, he set this place up. He felt he could do better, and he certainly did. As I said earlier, this thread is a great opportunity to help improve and evolve.

[Yet_Another]

Neither surprised nor otherwise. I'd hope that anyone of reasonable intelligence would recognise when they were talking from personal experience rather than projecting onto others. I was (hopefully) gently interjecting to put forward a point of view of someone who really doesn't like confrontation or argument.

[PLD]

Speaking from the perspective of having moderated on another forum (not model railways), it is a near impossible and thankless task - you will never please all the people all of the time so I do appreciate the difficult decisions that have to be made.

Having said that, I don't think either side comes out of the original APT thread with much credit... To me, there did seem to be a rather inflexible "rules is rules" stance and a reluctance to apply any common sense driven flexibility on a case-by-case basis on the part of the moderation team, but the over-reaction by the developer was over the top and unnecessary. Either party could have nipped it in the bud much sooner and avoided the situation ballooning in to the thread we have now.



As for the Rule in question regarding unpaid for promotion on the forum, I understand and appreciate it is there for 'revenue protection' - protecting paying advertisers from non-paying competitors, but there is a very fine line between members providing a valuable service to their fellow members in the form of information about products being available and promoting those products.
Potentially every thread about an exhibition could be classified as "advertising" (do/have any Exhibitions paid for adverts??); as could a thread discussing that manufacturer A has announced they intend to produce class ZYX; and every post in the 'Bargain Hunters' thread is absolutely outside the rules.
If a member posts a question "Does anyone produce a Left-handed size 12 widget" and I am able to supply, strictly adhering to the rules I should post the reply "Yes - but I'm not allowed to tell you where you can get them" which doesn't help the member asking the question.

Followed to the extreme, arguably we shouldn't mention any manufacturer by name, but to do so would be to the detriment of the membership and devalues the forum as a whole.

I would favour a more pragmatic approach where there is no problem in informing the membership that a product is available (regardless of whether they are the supplier or a customer) provided it is not constantly being pushed and the member is contributing to the forum in other ways, and has not joined with the sole purpose of promoting their products.

[dannyboy]

Just my two pennorth - I have been following this thread, although I did not see the post that started it all. I think PLD has got it right. Over the last few days I have been extolling the virtues of a certain distribution board and I thought to myself that, taking it to the limit, was I in breach of the rules as I was, in effect, advertising an item, although I was gaining no benefit. I have in the past, like a lot of members, mentioned items that I have bought and passed on my recommendations.  We have to be able to pass on such recommendations. Anyway, as PLD said,  "you will never please all the people all of the time so I do appreciate the difficult decisions that have to be made." I do applaud the Mods for looking after such an excellent forum. 

[Steven B]

Has the problem with the (none/late) delivery of the GWR Trojan made the moderators too wary about forum members selling 3d printed models?

Had the Trojan project been a Shapeways link and a name of the required chassis (together with suggestions on where to buy it) then non of the problems we saw would have happened.

Surely the whole point of this forum is to promote N Gauge modelling, and to get help and advice to improve your own modelling. Part of this includes showing your on-going projects. The regular updates of projects such as Innovationgame's TrainShedProject are what makes this forum great.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads where product recommendations are made. Are all these advertising?

It's crazy that a forum member can put time and effort into updating their projects on here but aren't allowed to post a link to their Shapeways store without first asking permission (especially as anyone else could add that link on their behalf!).

Surely purchasing from Shapeways is safer than buying from an individual privately? If it doesn't arrive or had been printed incorrectly then Shapeways will refund or re-print without quibbling. Thousands of users across the world user Shapeways, they wouldn't if they were unreliable.

I would like to suggest that Tank and the mods allow individuals to post links to their own Shapeways projects without asking for permission. If they then go on to sell their prints as a more complete item by including wheels, etches or transfers then yes, they should be asking permission.

Would it be possible to set up a moderated "Small Traders" portion of the board where information on new products can be posted? This would mean that any moderator could authorise them, thus removing Tank as the sole person responsible (should he fall under a bus, loose internet or his marbles!). Anyone making regular/repeated adverts could then be politely reminded that a contribution to forum funds would be welcome!

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

[Tank]

Thanks for the comments.  I am reading them, just having a busy week.

Also, thanks very much for the PM's.