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Author Topic: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering  (Read 29629 times)

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Offline Roy L S

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2015, 08:23:32 pm »
I know one shouldn't model a model, but this photo is particularly useful:
http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1496_1_2234648.html


That picture shows what a lovely job Colin Heard has done of this loco and in particular how well he has captured the tender. A top job!

Roy

Offline EtchedPixels

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2015, 09:25:33 pm »
http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/2516_600px.jpg

Would suggest that apart from very fine lining on the splashers it's good for the most part


"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline Bob Tidbury

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2015, 09:42:29 pm »
Just come up from a great running night down the shed testing the Dean Goods what an amazing Loco , ran it light engine for ten minutes each way as Colin said he tests and runs them in before dispatch then it pulled my 76 wagon mixed freight train with no problem at all ,this is the first steam loco to do this apart from my kit built Garrett which has two black five chassis .
I am going to see if someone can paint the hand rails and the safety valve cover and the whistle for me when I go to one of the shows ,I put the crew in to hide the wire up ,and will put a lamp on the front tomorrow.
If Union Mills Models can produce a Loco as good as this WHY can't the two other major manufacturers do it . I am  going to sort out my stock and sell some things to buy the Black Dean Goods as soon as I can .
As I said before I am a very satisfied customer .
Bob

Offline Roy L S

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2015, 10:30:25 pm »
If Union Mills Models can produce a Loco as good as this WHY can't the two other major manufacturers do it . Bob

Sorry Bob but the other two manufacturers can and do make models as good and in fact in so many ways better. I am a fan of UM models and long time customer but I am not blind to their limitations.

Take just one comparison - UM J39 v's Farish. I have had three UM ones over the years and very satisfied I have been. However by comparison (as it should) the more modern and admittedly more expensive Farish offering roundly trounces the UM loco in pretty much every respect (detail, finish, performance, technical spec - DCC ready more axles picking up, no horrible wire between loco and tender...I could go on) apart from (maybe and the Jury is out here) outright haulage capability.

It depends what you want and it is not for me to say what anyone's choice/preference should be but I think your observation is factually incorrect.

Kind Regards

Roy

Offline Bob Tidbury

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2015, 11:10:00 pm »
RoyLS  While I aggree that the detail is no where as fine as the modern Locos produced by the two manufacturers  I judge a loco by its performance and haulage capacity  and overal looks  , on my layout which is very old it was built in 1982 and is all dead frog points  the Dean Goods travelled at a crawl pulling the 76 wagons and as I said I have no other steam loco which will do that , yes it lacks separate hand rails ,sand pipes the safety valves aren't brass coloured and as you pointed out has a very thick wire joining the loco to the tender but for 72 what do expect .I have only had one Union Mills loco failure a few years ago but that was due to me not the loco but I have had too many problems with modern steam Locos such as 9Fs derailing on point work ,a Q 1 burnt out after ten minutes and M7 not even pulling more than three coaches and so on , so that's what I mean ,even the early 73s had drive shaft problems .I rest my case but as you say we are all entitled to our own opinions . I will certainly be buying a black Dean Goods in the near future .by the way a spare motor for a Union Mills loco is a lot cheaper at only 10 pounds against a Farish armature at about 15 or there  Abouts .
Sorry if I disagree or upset any one I just talk as I find.
Regards  Bob
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 11:11:15 pm by Bob Tidbury »

Offline Dr Al

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2015, 09:16:10 am »



Interesting - I wonder if Colin has used some common components on it - like the wheels and rods - they look very similar to the ones on the LNWR Cauliflower. Not that this is a criticism if true - looks accurate and would be efficient use of parts.

Either way it looks a nice model - the wire on UMs is easy to cut down in length and route below the cab floor level to make it less obtrusive - it's a 10 minute job and well worth doing.

As an aside, it would be great to see more pictures of the layout here - that looks like one heck of an impressive station in the background!

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Caz

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2015, 09:23:04 am »
Lovely looking loco, might just have to buy my first Union Mills loco as 2579 ran on the Fairford Branch at one time.  How the  :censored: am I going to get some sound into it though?   :worried:

Offline Karhedron

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2015, 09:33:31 am »
If you Google GWR 2516 you will get some useful pix of her in Swindon: no lining but the safety valve and whistle should be copper and the handrails picked out in steel.
The safety valve covers were often painted in real life, particularly on "lesser" locos. Brass needed polishing to keep looking its best and on goods locos, these often ended up being painted, particularly from the 1930s onwards. Here is a shot of 2516 in the late 40s with a painted dome.

Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Roy L S

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2015, 07:00:26 pm »
RoyLS  While I aggree that the detail is no where as fine as the modern Locos produced by the two manufacturers  I judge a loco by its performance and haulage capacity  and overal looks  , on my layout which is very old it was built in 1982 and is all dead frog points  the Dean Goods travelled at a crawl pulling the 76 wagons and as I said I have no other steam loco which will do that , yes it lacks separate hand rails ,sand pipes the safety valves aren't brass coloured and as you pointed out has a very thick wire joining the loco to the tender but for 72 what do expect .I have only had one Union Mills loco failure a few years ago but that was due to me not the loco but I have had too many problems with modern steam Locos such as 9Fs derailing on point work ,a Q 1 burnt out after ten minutes and M7 not even pulling more than three coaches and so on , so that's what I mean ,even the early 73s had drive shaft problems .I rest my case but as you say we are all entitled to our own opinions . I will certainly be buying a black Dean Goods in the near future .by the way a spare motor for a Union Mills loco is a lot cheaper at only 10 pounds against a Farish armature at about 15 or there  Abouts .
Sorry if I disagree or upset any one I just talk as I find.
Regards  Bob

Bob

None of the locos you mention above (M7, Q1, 9F) with all due respect are "modern" or anything close to the current "state of the art" especially in terms of performance and none would get house room on my layout. If they are your measure of comparison then I agree with you, I would chose UM locos over them any day of the week.

However let's instead look at the current locos as I judge mine on a balance of all things which absolutely includes performance. With the possible exception of outright haulage capacity the current models (especially those from Farish with the coreless motor) will easily outperform the UM locos in terms of smooth slow running and do so down to an absolute crawl which no UM loco of mine (I have I think 12) will come close to. Add to that performance exquisite detail (many fitted parts, see through spokes even on tenders where prototypical) DCC ready, NEM pockets etc etc and I maintain that there really is no comparison.

UM do what they do very competently, if they are your choice then so be it but my point is that comparing them with the current models of the "big 2" manufacturers they certainly can (and do) make models not just as good as UM, but as an overall package better.

As to haulage by the way, I have had a Farish B1 haul 22 coaches, not far off what my UM J26 managed (26). At those levels to me which wins at haulage becomes totally irrelevant as either is far in excess of what the prototype could manage. Would a real Dean Goods really have been expected to haul 76 wagons?

What UM are great at is finding the "niche" models like the Dean Goods or J38 which no mainstream manufacturer would touch anyway so actually it doesn't have to be a case of one or the other. It is for this reason that I finally have a UM J38 winging it's way to me..

Anyway, enjoy your modelling, that's what it's all about and it's ok to disagree in my book!

Kind Regards

Roy

« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 07:33:39 pm by Roy L S, Reason: Spelling and Grammar »

Offline Toneeze

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2015, 07:56:31 pm »
 :hellosign: Hmmm, Roy LS does have a point, however if you have a layout that the track work is old or not well connected ,ie large gaps between rails then that`s where the UM will out perform the say farish fairburn tank because the tank is too light . My UM loco will actually creep forward with the power unit on 0.The UM model my have less pick ups but what it does have is adequate for that loco.I will not buy another Dapol steam loco until they get rid of the drive shaft,so there is NO comparison with UM in my book.My farish 4f , wd ,coronation all run well and look the part, but how long will they last? only time will tell and I know which loco will still be running - over to you Bob         Toneeze 

Offline Roy L S

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2015, 08:59:54 pm »
:hellosign: Hmmm, Roy LS does have a point, however if you have a layout that the track work is old or not well connected ,ie large gaps between rails then that`s where the UM will out perform the say farish fairburn tank because the tank is too light . My UM loco will actually creep forward with the power unit on 0.The UM model my have less pick ups but what it does have is adequate for that loco.I will not buy another Dapol steam loco until they get rid of the drive shaft,so there is NO comparison with UM in my book.My farish 4f , wd ,coronation all run well and look the part, but how long will they last? only time will tell and I know which loco will still be running - over to you Bob         Toneeze

Hi Toneeze

As I mentioned, I do have and run UM locos too, I bought my first J39 way back in about 1998 I think it was. Back then it was a breath of fresh air. In simple terms it rekindled my enthusiasm for N gauge. I have bought UM locos routinely until recent years and even nowadays still buy the the odd one.

In terms of poor track, sorry, in my experience they are just as susceptible to derailing and playing up as any other loco in my collection and pickups, yes, agreed adequate but no more than that and they still can and do stall on dirty track and dead frog points. I return to my earlier comparison the UM J39 v's Farish. On the first six wheels (total) pick up on the second ten - almost twice as many.

Longevity is indeed a question that is as yet unanswered for the newest of models. What you can be sure of is that mechanisms will have been thoroughly tested and I can say from personal experience that already some of my Farish B1s in particular have high hours under their belts and are still running perfectly. They are well engineered so there is no reason to think that they wont give good service for many more years to come.  UM models are simply engineered and arguably the same is true of them. I have so far worn out only one - one of the early J39s, they last well but obviously do wear out in the end!

Regards

Roy
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 09:02:01 pm by Roy L S »

Offline Dr Al

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2015, 08:49:22 am »
UM models are simply engineered and arguably the same is true of them. I have so far worn out only one - one of the early J39s, they last well but obviously do wear out in the end!

What was the means of wearing out? How much running did this take? I've been concerned with UM that the chassis use the very soft metal that comprises the whole loco for bearing surfaces, and it seems likely this would wear badly in time, and worse, won't be easy to rectify without complete replacement.

I've seen one badly worn B12, but I didn't have its history to know how much service it'd seen.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2015, 08:55:22 am »
In terms of poor track, sorry, in my experience they are just as susceptible to derailing

I'd second that - particularly prone in the past as the BTB's are generally a bit narrow.

The test for me is seeing what runs over code 55 double slips - I'd say UM's were by far the worst of all manufacturers at doing so straight out of the box - at least half of them having tender derailments and crabbing. Most had to be tweaked and adjusted to get them to run over it.

In terms of more general performance, generally solid would be my descriptor. Their slow speed running is generally a bit sticky (dependent on the specific motor, some worse than others) and the top speed is ludicrous. As I want super creeping abilities I've swapped out all motors in mine for Mashima 1015s with superb results.

Overall UMs are a great little set of locos, which fills a genuine niche in the market, but I'm not blind to their failings either.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2015, 09:02:05 am »
the Dean Goods travelled at a crawl pulling the 76 wagons

But who actually does this? Did the Dean goods haul this much in real life? It's an indicative, but largely unrepresentative test IMHO.

as you pointed out has a very thick wire joining the loco to the tender but for 72 what do expect .

UM could easily improve this for no increase in cost (just cut down the wire length!).


by the way a spare motor for a Union Mills loco is a lot cheaper at only 10 pounds against a Farish armature at about 15 or there  Abouts .

Yes, but this is a simplistic comparison - the Farish armature and later motors are far superior in quality - 5 pole, and 5 pole skew wound, versus the UM's high revving 3 pole can. An identically packaged 5 pole Mashima 1015 equivalent motor is about 12, so actually the UM's no-name brand motor looks expensive compared to the far superior running and construction of a Mashima for only 2 more....

Put it this way - I'd happily pay more for UM locos if they came fitted with Mashimas as standard.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: UM Dean Goods price + pre-ordering
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2015, 09:04:47 am »
Going back to the Dean goods  :) can any of the new purchasees tell us how to scale the tender length/wheelbase actually is? Or if anyone would be willing to measure their loco and post the numbers that would be interesting. The tender looks a little stretched in the pics, but I'm not sure if that's accurate or whether it's just the diminutive stature of the loco that's making it seem so.

Thanks,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

 

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