Came across this bit of electrical wizardry, not yet in production but seems to be getting close. No price yet but it's going to be pretty expensive I'm sure.
A N gauge elevator system to feed full trains to the layout, as initial design seems to be able to hold 20 complete trains of a loco and nine carriages, looks really promising. Think it is going to be at Tings.
The website leaves a little to be desired as it is not very clear but see http://www.nelevation.com/ (http://www.nelevation.com/)
NOTE: When it puts the subscribe pop-up over the page, find the close X at the top right corner and left click on it to get rid of the pesky thing.
Sounds a bit like Peter Denny's train elevator that he built out of Meccano yonks ago!
George
Only Me might know something about it. ;)
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=20578.msg329695#msg329695 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=20578.msg329695#msg329695)
Couldn't see it due to the huge immovable 'sign up for our newsletter' banner and I wasn't prepared to sign up :thumbsdown:
Let's be fair ... it's white letters on a light grey background ! Hardly obvious ... I had to hunt, as I wasn't best pleased by the ad slapping itself in the middle !
A better colour would be an idea ::)
Hello all,
It is a very nice piece of kit. I will try to upload a photo later on that I took the other day when I was invited round to see it, and take part in a "test build", which was very straightforward. No gluing, soldering or filing required!
I have known the designer, Allen, for some time as he lives near me and was responsible for the Ribblehead viaduct N Gauge layout that appeared in Model Rail last year.
cheers
Ben A.
Unfortunately the website doesn't seem to provide any details with regard to it's physical layout, nor it's price.
A deliberate tease?
I'll certainly be having a look at TINGS.
Cost will certainly be a key question. I'd also be interested to see how portable/robust it is for exhibition purposes.
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 06, 2015, 05:41:28 PM
Let's be fair ... it's white letters on a light grey background ! Hardly obvious ... I had to hunt, as I wasn't best pleased by the ad slapping itself in the middle !
A better colour would be an idea ::)
:thumbsup:
A triumph of demented webdesign over simple information,
an 'in yer face' popup is not a good start ( but all too common these days )
Banner movies of no particular information, so in desperation I clicked "About" more in hope than expectation, wow scary pics of the inventor, so I left, no wiser, a marketing failure if I ever saw one.
Something about 20 trains ? hmmm, what was the old adage ,, "if you need to ask the price, yer canna afford it son. "
Quote from: Only Me on September 06, 2015, 04:54:36 PM
PS MICK ABOVE THE SIGN UP BUTTON on the right IS ONE SAYING "close" WHICH IF YOU CLICK IT CLOSES THE TAB
:D
Must be that old laptop of yours playing you up again!
Nope, I'm with Mike, if it needs special instruction like that it should not be there in the first place,
my lappy did observe it, out of its normal X marks the space,
it still annoyed me (even more cos it tried to be so clever !), not a good start, a simple link/invitation on the website somewhere would have been enormously more polite.
Hello all,
Poor Allen! I am not entirely sure his website is even fully finished yet and already people, having discovered it, are letting rip! I have told him that the banner is annoying people, though I chose not to mention that his photo is "scary" as that seems a little personal and, indeed, unnecessary.
The cost will, to some extent, depend on uptake since like all things the cost of producing the extrusion tools and other items will be amortised across the production run. Until he knows the likely demand I am not sure Allen is able to give a "hard" price.
A back of the envelope calculation suggests that a fiddle yard able to cope with that number of trains, and with all tracks at least 1.4m (the length of the prototype model) would cost around £600. This does not include the cost of the baseboards required and the wiring, or make allowance for the time to build. I have no idea how much the Nelevator will be, but surely not less than this.
It also saves a considerable amount of space. A traditional fiddle yard offering equivalent storage would need 1.4m + the width of 20 lines plus about 1m at each end for the fan of points - so at least 3.4m (11') long; the Nelevator is 1.4m (4'2") long and the width of just over two tracks. The Nelevator just drops into a slot in the baseboard.
It obviously isn't for everyone, and some would maybe prefer to buy points over a long period of time and spread the cost, but I think there will be a sector of the market for whom this is a very attractive solution.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on September 07, 2015, 01:20:45 AM
Hello all,
Poor Allen! I am not entirely sure his website is even fully finished yet and already people, having discovered it, are letting rip! I have told him that the banner is annoying people, though I chose not to mention that his photo is "scary" as that seems a little personal and, indeed, unnecessary.
The cost will, to some extent, depend on uptake since like all things the cost of producing the extrusion tools and other items will be amortised across the production run. Until he knows the likely demand I am not sure Allen is able to give a "hard" price.
A back of the envelope calculation suggests that a fiddle yard able to cope with that number of trains, and with all tracks at least 1.4m (the length of the prototype model) would cost around £600. This does not include the cost of the baseboards required and the wiring, or make allowance for the time to build. I have no idea how much the Nelevator will be, but surely not less than this.
It also saves a considerable amount of space. A traditional fiddle yard offering equivalent storage would need 1.4m + the width of 20 lines plus about 1m at each end for the fan of points - so at least 3.4m (11') long; the Nelevator is 1.4m (4'2") long and the width of just over two tracks. The Nelevator just drops into a slot in the baseboard.
It obviously isn't for everyone, and some would maybe prefer to buy points over a long period of time and spread the cost, but I think there will be a sector of the market for whom this is a very attractive solution.
cheers
Ben A.
Ben,
My post wasn't a criticism of the inventor/developer in any way. I just found the website a bit vague, and therefore wasn't sure if I had missed the pertinent details regarding the cost or a picture/drawing of the actual item, or if it was deliberate to create a "buzz" of intrigue prior to TINGS.
As an aside, the banner didn't concern me as the "close" caption was entirely visible on my machine.
Regards
Scott.
I'm getting the feeling that this is probably aimed at the club layout rather than private layouts. For a double track layout two of these would be needed. £1,200 is a lot of money to "hide" from SWMBO. :-[
Quote from: Only Me on September 07, 2015, 09:13:58 AMThe one I have seen Graham has a double track in it on separate elevators (the website also states dual tracks), I am unsure what the production model will come with although would presume a dual track system as that's what it's all built around, however anyone going to Tings could possibly ask or you could even drop Allen and email directly.
Looks like I've misunderstood then. I'll be at TINGS so it will be good to see one for real.
Hi all,
I emailed Allen with the points about the annoying pop-up banner and he is taking (or getting it taken) down.
As Paul said, the one we saw had twin tracks, ten roads each side, but of course Allen will be the best person to answer all these points at TINGS. I think there will be a lot of interest in this idea, and even if people aren't quite ready to committ immediately I can see it being the kind of thing you could plan a layout (or actually, a series of layouts) around.
Just don't overlook Revolution Trains in your haste to talk to Allen!!!
cheers
Ben A.
cheers
Ben A.
No offence to Allen, but this kind of project is something a competent modeller with computer skills (Arduino / Raspi or similar) could do ... I look forwards to learning more, as surely there must be more to it ::)
Hello Mike,
I consider myself a competent modeller, but this is what I would consider precision/model engineering, not modelling.
Leaving aside the computer skills, I doubt there are many modellers on this forum (or in N generally) who would know where or want to obtain custom aluminium extrustions, or be able to mill out the parts to adequate tolerances, or fabricate the gears and worms, or precision cut the endplates and bearings to the required accuracy.
I also think that the really clever bit - apart from making it easy to assemble - is the mechanism for the stopper motor that ensure the selected track lines up automatically. The used has a remote control with twenty buttons (ten each side) and just a single press causes the chosen track to move automatically into place and line up.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 07, 2015, 11:47:57 AM
No offence to Allen, but this kind of project is something a competent modeller with computer skills (Arduino / Raspi or similar) could do ... I look forwards to learning more, as surely there must be more to it ::)
Really?!
I repeat
Quote
surely there must be more to it
The info so far is rather limited, remember ... unless you're one of 'the few' who have seen it.
I like the sound of this, but I wonder if it's aimed more at home layouts where space is at a premium, or end to end layouts where you would typically use a cassette or sector plate. I'm not sold on it being something to ease operation on a 'roundy roundy' exhibition layout, where you might want to be receiving on one lane and dispatching on another to keep things moving.
I'll be paying a visit though to see what options are available, hopefully there will be a way to extend the lanes so that longer trains can be accommodated.
Cheers, Mark.
Can someone at TINGS take some pictures (and video if there is a working example) and post on this thread? I think that would be of great benefit.
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 07, 2015, 01:02:37 PM
The info so far is rather limited, remember ... unless you're one of 'the few' who have seen it.
Well, to be fair to Allen he didn't start the thread - I think he was intending the product to be unveiled at TINGS so there would be many who'd seen it.
It's probably my fault for mentioning it before the event... in which case apologies... though I just mentioned a new product, and someone else deduced it was the Nelevator.
cheers
Ben A.
I am planning a roundy-roundy and had included in the plan a two track cassette idea so i could switch trains without assembling the Eurostar or Brighton Belle etc. In that space, this would be a fantastic idea. As it stores so many trains it would make running a variety very easy (e.g. a few each of different eras).
As for this being easy to do DIY... Maybe, being a fairly competent modeller and not scared of electronics and such, maybe I could manage a less precise DIY effort. But would I want to? I model scenery and run trains. There must be a market for this with people who don't want to spend their time building it. And those who can and want to DIY, won't buy one. I am certainly looking forward to seeing it.
My only worry is its height... No data on that yet, but sounds like it would be quite tall. I will have a low layout with only a couple of feet from track to floor. Maybe a short version with only 12 tracks will be an option?
I am in the planning phase for my next layout & this could be just what I need to solve the fiddle yard problem. I get the impression that no decision has yet been made as to whether the product will actually be produced so the main issue for me would be the potential availability date in addition to the question of cost.
Hi Guys,
I think this really exciting, just thinl of the possibilities if he can develop it a little further.
I have a large home layout but I struggled to find enough space for gradients to allow a 20 bogie wagon freight to go up to the higher level smoothly.
How about a Nelevator were the train enters one end and then gets raised to the next level and then exits from the other end, suddenly we could have layouts with multiple levels but no steep gradients or helixes to get the trains up and down.
Course the biggest issue is that I don't think an 11 coach Pendolino will fit :D :D
Regards,
John P
Hello all,
On Allen's display layout the Nelevator does have different levels, but I think his plan is for this to be a customer option, rather than a standard feature.
The test one he's built would not fit an 11-car Pendolino, but of course the unit can be longer since the extruded aluminium used for the track beds can be cut to any length. Sagging is not a problem as bracing is incorporated.
I think Allen is determined to make this happen - and has already invested considerably in the product - and his attendance at TINGS is really about showing people what it can do and getting a feel for any additional features/alterations/innovations potential customers might suggest or require before committing to the actual production version.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on September 07, 2015, 11:40:04 AM
I emailed Allen with the points about the annoying pop-up banner and he is taking (or getting it taken) down.
Good, much better now !
Just trying to drop some hints* as to how he can best present his stuff, I'm sure he doesnt want peeps to walk away on a first visit - never to return !
As for "scary", you were not supposed to take it so serious, if I had wanted to be cruel , , ,
Now then, this whizzy speedreading 'now you see it now you dont' test of alacrity whatsit flashing past the top of the home page, does it help/add anything ? and I'm sure my old laptop is not the fastest m/c
Shirly a static basic presentation, on the home page of what it is all about with links to more details (when he gets it composed, noted that you think it is not yet a final version/presentation) would be helpful and save us having to mine the site for insight.
* if you dont like them you are free not to read me, or I can just not bother, as in not bother to re-visit a site I dont like with then a prospect of not purchasing something ?
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 12:15:20 AM
Give the poor chap a couple of days to move forward with all the comments (good and silly!) that have been put across
:thumbsup:
I think it would be a good idea to have some sides on those aluminium track beds in the lift, there would be allot of explaining to do if somebody knocks it when it's fully loaded :censored:
There's more info on his web site now too.
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 12:55:33 PMI found this on you tube just now maybe makes it a little clearer.
:thankyousign:
From watching this one thing does come to mind. At 1.34 you see a European style overhead electric with it's pantographs down. Fine for storage but not for the scenic part of the layout. If a pantograph could be left up then very fine tolerances would be needed to ensure that it didn't get stuck in the gap at each end. Perhaps this system may not be useful for OLHE layouts?
Nigel
This is a great concept. Wish I had enough room to justify getting one.
I assume that the video was made at an earlier stage though, coz it obviously needs a bit of work doing on the vertical alignment. That aside, I love techno stuff. I want one! Possibly even two! (where is the 'drooling' smiley when you need it?)
Thanks for posting the vid link.
Regards, Allan.....
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 08, 2015, 02:39:58 PM
(where is the 'drooling' smiley when you need it?)
Regards, Allan.....
You mean this one...? :drool:
Second row, above 'NGF rules'! :)
Chris
depending on cost, I think this venture may well be very successful, a very interesting and useful looking product.
Look forward to seeing it at TINGS
Simon
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
I found this on you tube just now maybe makes it a little clearer.
:thankyousign: great find. :claphappy:
A mighty machine indeed, very impressive.
Quote from: Papyrus on September 08, 2015, 03:01:36 PM
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 08, 2015, 02:39:58 PM
(where is the 'drooling' smiley when you need it?)
Regards, Allan.....
You mean this one...? :drool:
Oh yeah! Silly me, I thought that was the 'chunder smiley'...
But I know this one -> :-[
:thankyousign:
:drool: :drool: :thumbsup:
I think I can find space for one possibly two of those if the price is right.
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
I found this on you tube just now maybe makes it a little clearer.
www.youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o (http://www.youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o)
Looks like it is straight out of Thunderbirds!
Want one!
Fascinating to think I can do away with the 4 road fiddle yards on each oval and have a Nelevation which gives more roads, takes up less space and saves so many points/motors/wiring etc.
I'd like to read/see lots more about how it's wired to the exit tracks, how heavy it is etc and then see if a second mortgage is required :worried:
I knew I'd seen something on these lines somewhere ... A system (albeit for OO, but so what) was discussed on MRF back in 2011 (http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20490) where a book called "Mainlines in Modest Spaces" by Rice is mentioned, specifically page 35 dealing with this stuff, and this one in RMWeb (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29480-vertical-storage-unit-and-backscene/?&p=311277&hl=alangdance&fromsearch=1#entry311277) (again 2011) that refers to this page from 2008 on the building of it (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35000); there is also this web page dating back to 2002 (http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/VerticalTraverser.htm) and refers to an up-&-coming article in Model Railway Journal ... so there is plenty of prior knowledge on how to build these out there.
This looks incredible! If the cost is right I shall invest but it would need to be extended just a bit for me :worried: Looks like that will be "order able" would solve the whole fiddle yard question :drool:
Quote from: Ian Morton on September 08, 2015, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
I found this on you tube just now maybe makes it a little clearer.
www.youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o (http://www.youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o)
Looks like it is straight out of Thunderbirds!
Want one!
The link doesn't appear to work anymore.
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 08, 2015, 02:39:58 PMWish I had enough room to justify getting one.
Just remove the rest of your layout, with an infernal machine like that who would need anything more to play with !
(emoticon for joke flag waving, before I get into any more bovver )
----- cut and discard here ---
I cant help it - I'm having great trouble getting a song we used to sing (as engineering students) out of my head , ,
"An engineer told me before he died
, ,
of a monster machine , , , "
(I've changed the lyric there slightly as this is a family forum ! So - caveat - dont google that if you are of a nervous disposiution, there are a lot of un-funny versions out there )
Quote from: GrahamB on September 08, 2015, 06:22:33 PMThe link doesn't appear to work anymore.
Oh! same here, that's a shame.
oh well, all will be revealed in due course I suppose,
what shall we talk about now ?
Hi all,
I just clicked on the "full screen" icon in the video and it worked perfectly.
This is the web address that was at the top of the screen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAPD5bakW5o#t=13 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAPD5bakW5o#t=13)
cheers
Ben A.
Yes, working again now.
Odd, didnt notice this till Ben found it again,
this is the failure notice I got previously :
'www.youtu.be (http://www.youtu.be)' does not exist or is not available.
and
http://www.youtube.com (http://www.youtube.com) is the, now, correct url
Why would the " . " move like that ! One of life's little mysteries !
Edit,
Another attempt at humour :
I hope he is careful not to introduce a twist into the suspension, else a Mobius surface may result and 1 or more trains may vanish into another dimension ;)
Great video, explains it all and the updated website is a 1000 times better, my credit card is starting to scream. :worried:
Thanks for the corrected link.
Hmmmmm. Lots of thoughts going through my head. Credit card gone into hiding.
Quote from: MalcolmAL on September 08, 2015, 06:49:01 PM
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 08, 2015, 02:39:58 PMWish I had enough room to justify getting one.
Just remove the rest of your layout, with an infernal machine like that who would need anything more to play with !
(emoticon for joke flag waving, before I get into any more bovver )
----- cut and discard here ---
I cant help it - I'm having great trouble getting a song we used to sing (as engineering students) out of my head , ,
"An engineer told me before he died...
If the ditty involves a quantity of whipped cream then I don't need to Google it. I too have been a student, and a rugby player also.
Yes, I remember it well.....
Quote from: Caz on September 08, 2015, 08:58:45 PM
Great video, explains it all and the updated website is a 1000 times better
+1
I wonder if the ponderings of the NGF collective had anything to do with this transformation ?
Even the demented speed-read banner test has been brought under ( a certain amount of ) control ! :)
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 08, 2015, 02:39:58 PMand a rugby player also.
Yes, I remember it well.....
I'll take the 5th if you dont mind ;)
(OT)
ah rugby, as an 8st 5ft+not much weakling forced to play rugby for the "Red House" at school, (stupid artificial society differentiations) it fostered in me an appreciation of Newtonian Dynamics and the damage thatt could be done by judicious intervention at little risk to oneself. Love of mathematics, momentum et al followed.
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
But of course Malc Allen is lurking in the background.... We will assimilate you ;)
Video has appeared on the website too now!
:wave:
Yes, thort he might be, why else all these typings ? ?
We will of course donate our assimilation fees to Tank ;)
Hello all
I am the designers son, I believe that what my father has designed is rather outstanding. I have used the Nelevator a few times and seen it in action many more, it's such a great user friendly and compact product.
At home we have a layout and the fiddle yard is only 8 tracks wide, and we always come across the problem of running out of room for all our stock. The Nelevator is perfect for saving space yet increasing the amount of stock you can use and\or be stored in a dust free environment.
I'm sure Ben will agree with me that this is a fantastic product.
Jack.
Would this unit also be able to be set up to a second, or more, level? The possibility of having a multilayer layout with this as an alternative to a helix etc to connect the levels would be a mega space saver and another use beyond solely as a storage system. Alternatively another layer below the main boards could be just additional storage to store even more stock... hmmm...
Best wishes
Simon
[smg id=28866 type=av align=center caption="http://youtu be/kAPD5bakW5o"]
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27778.msg304005#msg304005 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27778.msg304005#msg304005)
I posted about this on 16 May 2015 and was one of the main reasons for attending this year
It's good to finally see a prototype in action and the website updated
However, the Techincal Specification still does not provide actual dimensions required (foot print and vertical clearance)
Looks to be about 1.6m x 0.3m, but I don't know how deep or high the unit is
Looks an interesting system. Does the track alignment need adjusting though? The bump that the trains experience entering and leaving the track as shown (vertical height of the tray looks too high) is rather alarming - it'll do in the wheels fairly quickly if you're running at any speed for any length of time.
I presume this can be adjusted and alignment toleranced up more tightly?
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan,
Yes - there is an alignment mode in which the track can be jogged up or down in steps of, I think, 0.5mm, and then once set it "remembers" exactly where to go next time round.
cheers
Ben A.
That is good looked a bit violent on the video.. Would've spilt all the coffees in the buffet car!
Any clues on a price tag?
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: Only Me on September 09, 2015, 09:05:59 PMprobably around the same cost of a fiddle yard of full size proportions less wood/wiring building time etc
The fiddle yard on my first layout had 24 tracks which used 48 points
I estimate that cost me £300
My current fiddle yard has 12 tracks using 12 points
It will be interesting to see how this compares
Quote from: GrahamB on September 08, 2015, 06:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ian Morton on September 08, 2015, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: Only Me on September 08, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
I found this on you tube just now maybe makes it a little clearer.
www.youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o (http://www.youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o)
Looks like it is straight out of Thunderbirds!
Want one!
The link doesn't appear to work anymore.
Copy the link without the www at the front.
Correct link:-
http://youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o (http://youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o)
Paul
Wow, the number of boxes this ticks for me is brilliant, including; no space for a fiddle yard, much of my stock is in boxes and rarely sees the light of day and occasionally wanting to scratch the itch of running GNER 43s/91s on a layout which is very 1930's steam.
I'll watch for developments with great interest.
Dear NGF.
My name is Allen (just call me "Scary"). Before I start, please could I say that this is my first time posting on the forum so I apologise now if I disobey or upset protocol. I've only contributed to one forum before, The Hornby 00 live steam forum, I got barred! Twice!
Anyway, as you know, I've been watching the discussion with interest and I have to say, I am completely overwhelmed with the positive feedback and other observations about the product. I started this development with my own requirements in mind and had no idea if anyone else would be interested in the commercialisation of such an idea. Elevators are nothing new but I believe that the combination of ease of use, good length trains and visible storage combined with space saving and economic viability is a good starting point.
The objectives of attending TINGS and the National in Peterborough are to gauge if there is a demand for the product, if so, what should the spec be? length of trains, number of tracks, multiple level, single lane, double lane, acceptable cost etc.......
With this in mind, I am attending the show with an open mind as to what the final spec should be, hence the vague web content.
Having said that, I would like to answer a few questions that have been raised a few times. (based on the existing prototype)
1. The unit sits in a cut out in the baseboard 1500mm x 120mm. No fixing down is required. I've found gravity to be quite reliable on earth. If I get an order from NASA I will gladly supply additional fasteners.
2. The unit stands 500mm above baseboard level and hangs 600mm below
3. The max train length is 1400mm
4. The vertical alignment is very easy (apologies for the video, you guys don't miss much!) calibration has 2 settings 0.05 fine adjustment and 1mm course adjustment)
5. The show layout has 2 running tail chasers, 1 digital, the other analogue.
6. The show layout has a second level, end to end, DCC line. Turntable, Nelevator, terminus.
7. Cost. This is the big one. This sounds like a cop out but it is down to volume. If I had to make another one like the prototype it would cost about £3k but all the components are one off and many of them CNC machined from billet aluminium. Nice probably not what you want. If I'm wrong, I'll be very please to make you one! To give and example: The handset cost me £285 with some investment I can get that down to £3.60. The top folded aluminium covers with the Totems on cost £120 each. if I order 20 this cost comes down to £21 each. Its all down to volume. The electronics aren't viable at all if I cant order a minimum batch size of 50. Having said that, If the spec stays somewhere near the prototype, I am confident that we can hit somewhere around the £600 mark. this would be for: kit build, 20 lanes, single level, No track included, Nelevator.
8. Timescales. That depends on the show. Maybe nobody wants one. If so I've got a lovely elevator and we call it a day. Hopefully that's not the case and we're full steam ahead onto the next level. (sorry). That been the case, and I need confidence that we can sell a modest 50 units, we will finalise specifications from your feedback and enter the Design for Manufacture stage to drive cost out but create a robust, beautiful product.
Thank you all again for all your comments. I need the feedback to ensure we arrive with the right product.
I'm looking forward to meeting you all at TINGS.
Cheers
Scary. AKA Allen
p.s The show layout is purely a demonstrable unit to show off the Nelevators functionality (its not even finished) so please try to ignore my limited model making skills.
:NGF:
Hi Allen (with an 'e'), Good to get your input to this thread and I am delighted that you are able to make use of the various comments.
Like you, I am no stranger to being barred/booted from a forum (or two). I tend to say what I think.
Your lift (I'm British doncha know!) is a great idea. I will give it serious consideration if the price proves to be within my budget. Your examples of the cost versus quantity was interesting reading.
Thinking about it, 'Nelevator' is easier to vocalise than 'Nlift' would be - OK, Nelevation it is then.
I hope this all works out for you and I wish you all success possible with it.
Regards, Allan (with two 'a's').....
Quote from: Only Me on September 10, 2015, 07:00:14 AM48 points at retail would be approximately £432 less track, wiring, £240 approx of point motors and the cost of the wood
Two boxes of flexitrack and 48 points
Had forgotten about the point motors, so add £200
That comes to £500
The wiring is also about the same, three packs cost me about £10
The timber cost is about the same, as support will still be required
Quote from: Nelevation on September 10, 2015, 04:27:55 PM7. Cost. This is the big one. This sounds like a cop out but it is down to volume. If I had to make another one like the prototype it would cost about £3k but all the components are one off and many of them CNC machined from billet aluminium. Nice probably not what you want. If I'm wrong, I'll be very please to make you one! To give and example: The handset cost me £285 with some investment I can get that down to £3.60. The top folded aluminium covers with the Totems on cost £120 each. if I order 20 this cost comes down to £21 each. Its all down to volume. The electronics aren't viable at all if I cant order a minimum batch size of 50. Having said that, If the spec stays somewhere near the prototype, I am confident that we can hit somewhere around the £600 mark. this would be for: kit build, 20 lanes, single level, No track included, Nelevator.
Will no doubt overhear other discussions, and discuss with you myself on Saturday
Sadly vague prices won't make customers, people like to see a price tag, know what they are buying in advance
Sounds like you need to get firm orders or notes of interest (as we call them in Scotland)
Sadly I am now in transit so can't check those dimensions
Ideally, I would need the unit to be mounted on the baseboard surface in order to replace and work alongside my existing fiddle yard
However, if the cost comes down considerably I could order several units and replace the entire fiddle yard (again)
£600 is certainly comparable to a fiddle yard which can hold 20 full size trains
However, I note track is not included
This needs to be clarified
I'm definitely interested and following this discussion with avid interest..
Good luck with this venture Allen.
Cheers
Mark
Just as an aside, the vertical element appears to be a plastic enclosure
Therefore even if someone accidently knocks the baseboard the stock should not become displaced
However, if it does removal could be fun
Equally, the plastic enclosure will protect stored stock from dust, and reduced further by covering the open ends
Just to inject a note of facetiousness, am I the only one who thinks it sounds like a lift for elephants?
Great idea, by the way.
Sounds amazing! Just need the "track" clarified for me as I'm a simple soul but can definitely see a use for this!
Quote from: mjkerr on September 10, 2015, 05:05:20 PM
However, I note track is not included
This needs to be clarified
Possibly owing to the variety of track makes required by different folks :hmmm:
The dimensions could be a sticking point as the height above baseboard level would dwarf smallish layouts and the width being set at 1400mm would not be enough for those requiring long trains i.e. more than loco + 8 coaches :-\
Quote from: newportnobby on September 10, 2015, 09:33:00 PM
the width being set at 1400mm would not be enough for those requiring long trains i.e. more than loco + 8 coaches :-\
Haha - I made the same point to Ben as I pointed out that you couldn't fit a Pendolino set in :D. Ben assured me that the length would be customisable!
Cheers, Mike
I'm sure I've read somewhere that the modules can be made up to any length, short or long as the extrusion allows the trays to quite long without any droop, so if you've got the money a 14 coach train or so would be possible. :)
What I was really getting at is that the potential variety of sizes folks would be interested in purchasing would possibly negate the ability for Allen to buy certain components in bulk and would thus keep the cost to the customer relatively higher than the 'best guesstimate' of £600.
Quote from: newportnobby on September 10, 2015, 09:33:00 PMPossibly owing to the variety of track makes required by different folks
The dimensions could be a sticking point as the height above baseboard level would dwarf smallish layouts and the width being set at 1400mm would not be enough for those requiring long trains i.e. more than loco + 8 coaches
Apologies, I appreciate there are different types of track
It is the connection method and how this is established
I plan to have full DCC and detection, and if only the powered track is connected then I would lose connection to all the other stock
I have two options, depending on how variable the storage length is
I can retain the longer tracks for full length HST
The middle tracks can then be replaced by the storage device, which forms the majority of the loco hauled trains
Equally, with Glasgow Queen Street the maximum train length is typically 6 coaches
The shorter tracks can then be used to store DMU and locos
Quote from: Only Me on September 07, 2015, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: jpendle on September 07, 2015, 05:11:57 PM
Hi Guys,
I think this really exciting, just thinl of the possibilities if he can develop it a little further.
I have a large home layout but I struggled to find enough space for gradients to allow a 20 bogie wagon freight to go up to the higher level smoothly.
How about a Nelevator were the train enters one end and then gets raised to the next level and then exits from the other end, suddenly we could have layouts with multiple levels but no steep gradients or helixes to get the trains up and down.
Course the biggest issue is that I don't think an 11 coach Pendolino will fit :D :D
Regards,
John P
Maybe you'll see one at Tings! ;)
If this happens it will break Maurits :-[
Quote from: mjkerr on September 10, 2015, 09:44:54 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on September 10, 2015, 09:33:00 PMPossibly owing to the variety of track makes required by different folks
The dimensions could be a sticking point as the height above baseboard level would dwarf smallish layouts and the width being set at 1400mm would not be enough for those requiring long trains i.e. more than loco + 8 coaches
Apologies, I appreciate there are different types of track
It is the connection method and how this is established
I plan to have full DCC and detection, and if only the powered track is connected then I would lose connection to all the other stock
I have two options, depending on how variable the storage length is
I can retain the longer tracks for full length HST
The middle tracks can then be replaced by the storage device, which forms the majority of the loco hauled trains
Equally, with Glasgow Queen Street the maximum train length is typically 6 coaches
The shorter tracks can then be used to store DMU and locos
Hi Mike,
I think this is exactly the sort of modeller feedback Allen is after. As he explained, at the moment he is at the stage of wanting to optimise his product for the "mass" market.
I am not sure about why the height is an issue - the Nelevator would have your layout's name printed on, and is intended to display the trains at the same time. If you actually don't want to see it I guess you could just have a higher backscene?
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 09:55:48 PMI am not sure about why the height is an issue - the Nelevator would have your layout's name printed on, and is intended to display the trains at the same time. If you actually don't want to see it I guess you could just have a higher backscene?
The layout is U-shaped and runs round the walls of the room
However, the fiddle yard cannot be any lower, there is a structure underneath it, so the lift will need to be mounted on to the baseboard
Quote from: mjkerr on September 10, 2015, 10:31:52 PM
The layout is U-shaped and runs round the walls of the room
However, the fiddle yard cannot be any lower, there is a structure underneath it, so the lift will need to be mounted on to the baseboard
I've not seen it "in the flesh" yet, but surely, in order to access the top track the other ten tracks will be below baseboard level?
Quote from: mjkerr on September 10, 2015, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 09:55:48 PMI am not sure about why the height is an issue - the Nelevator would have your layout's name printed on, and is intended to display the trains at the same time. If you actually don't want to see it I guess you could just have a higher backscene?
The layout is U-shaped and runs round the walls of the room
However, the fiddle yard cannot be any lower, there is a structure underneath it, so the lift will need to be mounted on to the baseboard
Ah, OK. The Nelevator has to sit both above and below baseboard level.
cheers
Ben A.
Maybe I missed this, but how is it sealed against dust? Dust on trains (particularly modern superdetail models) is a major problem (risk of knocking bits off cleaning) which is a driver for some of us keeping our stock boxed when not in use. How does the Nelevator deal with that?
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 11, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Maybe I missed this, but how is it sealed against dust? Dust on trains (particularly modern superdetail models) is a major problem (risk of knocking bits off cleaning) which is a driver for some of us keeping our stock boxed when not in use. How does the Nelevator deal with that?
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan
Its not hermetically sealed but with the covers on and trains stored in the top position (track 10) dust ingress is limited to entering through the portals or up from the underside. I have thought about adding a filtered fan as an option to provide a positive pressure down flow. More cost but possible.
Quote from: Nelevation on September 11, 2015, 09:10:03 AM
dust ingress is limited to entering through the portals or up from the underside.
Could these areas be closed off when layout is not in use?
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 11, 2015, 09:15:16 AM
Quote from: Nelevation on September 11, 2015, 09:10:03 AM
dust ingress is limited to entering through the portals or up from the underside.
Could these areas be closed off when layout is not in use?
Cheers,
Alan
Sure could. Nothing is impossible! All sorts of bells and whistles can be added. I'm going to welcome on board all comments from TINGS then we'll carry out a cost/feature/benefit analysis and decide what goes is included as standard and what is offered as an option.
Cheers :beers:
Allen
Quote from: Nelevation on September 11, 2015, 09:26:13 AM
Sure could. Nothing is impossible! All sorts of bells and whistles can be added.
Definitely worth considering IMHO, given that with 20 tracks users could have literally thousands of pounds worth of stock contained within.
I'm sure something could be rigged to pretty much seal it up when not in use without too much difficulty.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
I am not sure about why the height is an issue - the Nelevator would have your layout's name printed on, and is intended to display the trains at the same time. If you actually don't want to see it I guess you could just have a higher backscene?
That's true, Ben, but not many of us have a backscene as tall as 500mm :hmmm:
Quote from: Only Me on September 11, 2015, 08:48:18 AM
it sits I believe 500mm below the base board and 600mm above, as the trains need to enter & exit the fiddle yard correctly, for instance if the train on road one (bottom fiddle yard) needs to exit then there would be 9 levels above it and if train 10 (top of the fiddle yard) needs to exit then the other 9 fiddle yards would be below the board.
Hope that makes a little more sense.
Paul.
I think it's the other way round, Paul - 500mm above baseboard level and 600mm below.
I'm guessing you can only use this for storage in a fixed location. For exhibition layouts, or dismountable ones like mine will be, the stock would fall off/out if not kept vertical & moved slowly & not bumped.
Quote from: Yet_Another on September 11, 2015, 01:32:23 PMFor exhibition layouts, or dismountable ones like mine will be, the stock would fall off/out if not kept vertical & moved slowly & not bumped
I for one don't have a car that's got enough floor to ceiling space to put the elevator in vertically so I'd have to carry it horizontally and therefore empty of stock between house / clubhouse / exhibition.
If you could transport it vertically would you risk leaving it fully stocked with the state of the roads in some places, unless of course you drive at 5 mph?
Can I put in a plea for the vertical separation to be able to accommodate electric locos with their pantographs raised please? Similarly US outline modellers with double stack containers and bi-level Amtrak cars will need a fair bit of headroom.
In reply number 1 of this thread, I mentioned the late Peter Denny's contraptions that he built back in the late 70s and early 80s. Here they are:
[smg id=28915 type=preview align=center width=400]
[smg id=28914 type=preview align=center width=400]
He called the first one a 'gradient eliminator'. The man was indeed an inventive genius, but a close inspection of his electrical work reveals that the safety side of things would be frowned upon by today's standards! (Take a look at the transformer and it's mains cable on the right)
Photo acknowledgements: from the book 'Peter Denny's Buckingham Branch Lines Part Two 1967 - 1991', by Peter Denny; published by Wild Swan Publications, 1994 (ISBN 1 874103 21 6)
I saw this in person today. It is a very nice piece of kit; very elegantly designed and doubles as a display case with lighting. It worked really well and I shall be designing my final layout to include one.
They did say to sign up on the website so that they can get feedback and gauge what people want from the system (how tall, how long etc...).
i was very impressed.
Dear NGF
Thank you to everyone who came to see us at TINGS. I am completely staggered by the ammount of interest, smiling faces and positive feedback about the concept. We will definately be moving forward with the development so thanks again for giving me the confidence to take the Nelevator to market.
The next steps will be to finalise specifications and get a better idea on cost. I'm going to take a couple of days to go through all the comments and questions that you've raised and try and answer them all in a newsletter via the website. As indicated, our target cost is £600 for the base unit in self assembly form and fitting your own track. This is a target and we've got alot of work to do to get there but we're going to give it our best.
From the show it looks like we could end up with 2 variants. One longer (to take an 11 car Pendalino) 2 metre track length. One shorte 1 metre for branch line duties.
Anyway. thanks again for your support and I'll keep the forum updated on progress.
Cheers
Allen
I was most impressed with you working unit at the show but as I run modern image bulk trains what would be the longest length you could go too?
I am looking at a loco and 20+ bogie wagons be them hoppers, tanks or freightliner wagons.
The cost of a kit would be of great interest to me.
Quote from: Northern Git on September 14, 2015, 10:02:10 AM
I was most impressed with you working unit at the show but as I run modern image bulk trains what would be the longest length you could go too?
I am looking at a loco and 20+ bogie wagons be them hoppers, tanks or freightliner wagons.
The cost of a kit would be of great interest to me.
Can you let me know how long (coupled length) your wagons are please? Thanks Allen
Just as a development thought
If there is demand for 1 metre and 2 metre units, then why not look at a design that allows consecutive units
It may mean some duplication at the joins of the units, but initially it will allow an economy of scales
Equally, I had a discussion with one of the layout owners present who instantly dismissed it as it wasn't long enough for their needs
Then I explained how I would be using it, and they agreed that for exhibitions the method I am looking at would indeed work
The main advantage for clubs would be the ability to use one unit on different layouts, replacement layouts, and so on
The final hurdle is transportation
For clubs this isn't usually a problem as vans are normally used
Hi Allen,
Having spent the weekend next to you with our Pendolino I can tell you that there was one very influential group of visitors who seemed consistently impressed with the Nelevator: the wives/girlfriends etc.
I suspect this may be because it ticks the "nice, new, shiny" box. Even forgetting the space saving advantages I overheard comments such as "I wouldn't mind that in the spare room." To the wifely eye I suspect the Nelevator is significantly more attractive than unpainted plywood boards covered with track and wire!
One of the German modular guys (from Stuttgart I think) was very interested too - I told him to leave his email address in your book. He said that similar, but smaller and less well put together, items are available on the continent but are hand built and cost upwards of 2000 Euros!! Makes £600 seem like a snip!
I think you should consider marketing it in Europe, though I appreciate you may not want to run before you're walking!
Also, as I think I said to you, I am increasingly convinced that for many Exhibition layouts the Nelevator's advantage is not necessarily in completely replacing the fiddle yard, but in complementing it. A 12' or 16' show layout has room for long sidings anyway, but a Nelevator in the middle could allow the width of the fiddle yard to be drastically reduced. The Nelevator could be used for a wide variety of MUs or short passenger trains, trip freights or engineers trains while a handful of full-length sidings could be retained alongside to enable the operators to run additional long, realistic freights.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on September 14, 2015, 01:44:13 PM
Hi Allen,
Having spent the weekend next to you with our Pendolino I can tell you that there was one very influential group of visitors who seemed consistently impressed with the Nelevator: the wives/girlfriends etc.
I suspect this may be because it ticks the "nice, new, shiny" box. Even forgetting the space saving advantages I overheard comments such as "I wouldn't mind that in the spare room." To the wifely eye I suspect the Nelevator is significantly more attractive than unpainted plywood boards covered with track and wire!
One of the German modular guys (from Stuttgart I think) was very interested too - I told him to leave his email address in your book. He said that similar, but smaller and less well put together, items are available on the continent but are hand built and cost upwards of 2000 Euros!! Makes £600 seem like a snip!
I think you should consider marketing it in Europe, though I appreciate you may not want to run before you're walking!
Also, as I think I said to you, I am increasingly convinced that for many Exhibition layouts the Nelevator's advantage is not necessarily in completely replacing the fiddle yard, but in complementing it. A 12' or 16' show layout has room for long sidings anyway, but a Nelevator in the middle could allow the width of the fiddle yard to be drastically reduced. The Nelevator could be used for a wide variety of MUs or short passenger trains, trip freights or engineers trains while a handful of full-length sidings could be retained alongside to enable the operators to run additional long, realistic freights.
cheers
Ben A.
Thanks Ben. I really appreciate your help. Yes, I agree. It was even described as being "pretty" by one wife. It would be fantastic to get some on the exhibition circuit to spread the word. We could offer clubs a discounted rate to promote the Nelevation brand and I wouldn't have to attend shows. Happy days! Ive contacted the UKTI who will help fund trade shows promoting export so a european show could definately be on the cards or even Japan (when we're fully developed)
When you get a minute please can you let me know the coupled lenth of the Pendalino coach and loco.
Cheers
Allen
From the show it looks like we could end up with 2 variants. One longer (to take an 11 car Pendalino) 2 metre track length. One shorter 1 metre for branch line duties.
Excellent! Now I can fit my eurostar and 225 in there!
Quote from: mjkerr on September 14, 2015, 01:08:05 PM
Just as a development thought
If there is demand for 1 metre and 2 metre units, then why not look at a design that allows consecutive units
It may mean some duplication at the joins of the units, but initially it will allow an economy of scales
Equally, I had a discussion with one of the layout owners present who instantly dismissed it as it wasn't long enough for their needs
Then I explained how I would be using it, and they agreed that for exhibitions the method I am looking at would indeed work
The main advantage for clubs would be the ability to use on unit on different layouts, replacement layouts, and so on
The final hurdle is transportation
For clubs this isn't usually a problem as vans are normally used
Good thinking. I'll give this some thought as we would get economies of scale. We wouldnt want to duplicate the whole unit though as the electronics module is really expensive so we would have to have one driving unit and multiple slaves. It could be posiible.
Cheers
Quote from: G_N_E_R on September 14, 2015, 04:53:25 PM
From the show it looks like we could end up with 2 variants. One longer (to take an 11 car Pendalino) 2 metre track length. One shorter 1 metre for branch line duties.
Excellent! Now I can fit my eurostar and 225 in there!
225 probably. 20 car Eurostar, No! :sorrysign:
Quote from: Nelevation on September 14, 2015, 05:19:02 PM225 probably. 20 car Eurostar, No!
It could be possible with modular units
Measurements would need to be taken, and there would probably be waste
Personally for one such long train then a single separate track would be better
One of the layouts I looked at several years ago kept the centre track solely for their Eurostar train
It is one of the things I was considering when standing viewing the Nelevator, thinking in my head -
What if I put two units back to back...
Could they be synchronised, and would they need to be?
If I put my HST in the longer tracks to the front and rear...
Would I need even need two units?
If I kept one track clear on each side...
Could I store little used trains in the furthest away unit?
Many of my trains have locos that require to be detached...
How would I perform this if they are in the middle of the unit?
Looks a brilliant piece of kit and am eagerly awaiting further details.
Hoping that you have the concept/IP details 'protected' to avoid copycat theft of your design.
Wishing you every success, Allen.
Dave G
Very interested in this, it looks like a marvellous creation, and it could certainly find a home on my layout, but the discussion of differing lengths/modular units confuses me a bit -
I wasn't able to get to TINGS, so have only seen the snippets on the website... but from what I can see it looks like all the electrical & mechanical "gubbins" are at either end of the unit.. And it's just the aluminium sections between ... If that's the case - couldn't those be cut to any length required? - to make the unit however long or short as needed?
Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?
Quote from: Nelevation on September 14, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
Quote from: Northern Git on September 14, 2015, 10:02:10 AM
I was most impressed with you working unit at the show but as I run modern image bulk trains what would be the longest length you could go too?
I am looking at a loco and 20+ bogie wagons be them hoppers, tanks or freightliner wagons.
The cost of a kit would be of great interest to me.
Can you let me know how long (coupled length) your wagons are please? Thanks Allen
Can you go up to 3m I length because that would be a more suitable size for me?
How about a DCC interface?
Each level could be given an accessory address so that you could choose the road just like setting a point.
Quote from: Nelevation on September 10, 2015, 04:27:55 PM
Dear NGF.
My name is Allen (just call me "Scary"). Before I start, please could I say that this is my first time posting on the forum so I apologise now if I disobey or upset protocol. I've only contributed to one forum before, The Hornby 00 live steam forum, I got barred! Twice!
Anyway, as you know, I've been watching the discussion with interest and I have to say, I am completely overwhelmed with the positive feedback and other observations about the product. I started this development with my own requirements in mind and had no idea if anyone else would be interested in the commercialisation of such an idea. Elevators are nothing new but I believe that the combination of ease of use, good length trains and visible storage combined with space saving and economic viability is a good starting point.
The objectives of attending TINGS and the National in Peterborough are to gauge if there is a demand for the product, if so, what should the spec be? length of trains, number of tracks, multiple level, single lane, double lane, acceptable cost etc.......
With this in mind, I am attending the show with an open mind as to what the final spec should be, hence the vague web content.
Having said that, I would like to answer a few questions that have been raised a few times. (based on the existing prototype)
1. The unit sits in a cut out in the baseboard 1500mm x 120mm. No fixing down is required. I've found gravity to be quite reliable on earth. If I get an order from NASA I will gladly supply additional fasteners.
2. The unit stands 500mm above baseboard level and hangs 600mm below
3. The max train length is 1400mm
4. The vertical alignment is very easy (apologies for the video, you guys don't miss much!) calibration has 2 settings 0.05 fine adjustment and 1mm course adjustment)
5. The show layout has 2 running tail chasers, 1 digital, the other analogue.
6. The show layout has a second level, end to end, DCC line. Turntable, Nelevator, terminus.
7. Cost. This is the big one. This sounds like a cop out but it is down to volume. If I had to make another one like the prototype it would cost about £3k but all the components are one off and many of them CNC machined from billet aluminium. Nice probably not what you want. If I'm wrong, I'll be very please to make you one! To give and example: The handset cost me £285 with some investment I can get that down to £3.60. The top folded aluminium covers with the Totems on cost £120 each. if I order 20 this cost comes down to £21 each. Its all down to volume. The electronics aren't viable at all if I cant order a minimum batch size of 50. Having said that, If the spec stays somewhere near the prototype, I am confident that we can hit somewhere around the £600 mark. this would be for: kit build, 20 lanes, single level, No track included, Nelevator.
8. Timescales. That depends on the show. Maybe nobody wants one. If so I've got a lovely elevator and we call it a day. Hopefully that's not the case and we're full steam ahead onto the next level. (sorry). That been the case, and I need confidence that we can sell a modest 50 units, we will finalise specifications from your feedback and enter the Design for Manufacture stage to drive cost out but create a robust, beautiful product.
Thank you all again for all your comments. I need the feedback to ensure we arrive with the right product.
I'm looking forward to meeting you all at TINGS.
Cheers
Scary. AKA Allen
p.s The show layout is purely a demonstrable unit to show off the Nelevators functionality (its not even finished) so please try to ignore my limited model making skills.
:NGF:
The answer to my Fiddle Yard prayers! My Order is in. Go Allen. :claphappy:
Given the right length for our own fiddle yards, I wonder how many would seriously commit to £600 (price being bandied about) for a Nelevator :hmmm:
If, for example, Allen was to ask for 50% deposit (like the Pendolino), would there be enough players prepared to do this?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea with huge potential, but I reckon Allen needs some solid evidence of commitment before proceeding too far.
Quote from: newportnobby on September 15, 2015, 12:29:43 PM
Given the right length for our own fiddle yards, I wonder how many would seriously commit to £600 (price being bandied about) for a Nelevator :hmmm:
If, for example, Allen was to ask for 50% deposit (like the Pendolino), would there be enough players prepared to do this?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea with huge potential, but I reckon Allen needs some solid evidence of commitment before proceeding too far.
I would happily pay £600 - the only issue is that I can't retrofit it to my existing layouts (been up with a tape-measure to check), so it would be at the time of designing the next layout. It would be a bit of a big investment to buy and salt away for several years......
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: newportnobby on September 15, 2015, 12:29:43 PM
Given the right length for our own fiddle yards, I wonder how many would seriously commit to £600 (price being bandied about) for a Nelevator :hmmm:
If, for example, Allen was to ask for 50% deposit (like the Pendolino), would there be enough players prepared to do this?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea with huge potential, but I reckon Allen needs some solid evidence of commitment before proceeding too far.
Mick there is tremendous support for this and also enquiries about a OO version elsewhere. Remember one of the reasons for modelling N Gauge is space saving, this addresses that issue in freeing up Fiddle Yards, also I like to see my models and they would be visible in the Perspex case. Double whammy and then I could sell all those boxes back to JB :-)
£600 sounds reasonable, even better if £300 deposit then £300 balance later.
Have I read correctly that the £600 doesn't include track?
Is this going to be a crowd funded project?
I'd be interested in a DCC version, if not produced could we design/build our own DCC to Nelevator interface to replace the handset? Is the handset a 'dumb terminal'?
With one of these I'll be able to fit even more of Royal Wootton Bassett's town buildings into the model!
Rather glad that my layout building has slowed to a stop - let's me build one of these in from the "beginning" :)
Best regards
Michael
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 12:52:59 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on September 15, 2015, 12:29:43 PM
Given the right length for our own fiddle yards, I wonder how many would seriously commit to £600 (price being bandied about) for a Nelevator :hmmm:
If, for example, Allen was to ask for 50% deposit (like the Pendolino), would there be enough players prepared to do this?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea with huge potential, but I reckon Allen needs some solid evidence of commitment before proceeding too far.
Mick there is tremendous support for this and also enquiries about a OO version elsewhere. Remember one of the reasons for modelling N Gauge is space saving, this addresses that issue in freeing up Fiddle Yards, also I like to see my models and they would be visible in the Perspex case. Double whammy and then I could sell all those boxes back to JB :-)
I'm not querying its reason for existence, George :no:
Merely wondering just how many are carried away by the euphoria of its potential but when it comes to parting with the dosh would find a reason not to buy.
Taking things to an extreme, it would be pointless 1000 people expressing an interest but only 20 willing to cough up when it comes to crunch time.
Please don't think I have a downer on this at all.
I understand exactly what you mean Mick, it may well take a little while for the full potential to be realised by potential purchasers, however there appears to be good support at this stage, how else can the project progress? Everything in life is a risk. I don't expect everyone to get excited about it and there will of course be critics. Possibly one of the holdbacks of this is the disruption to existing layouts.
Quote from: Only Me on September 15, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
In case you guys still want to know the full dimensions, here they are :-
[smg id=29366 type=full size=800 align=center caption="N'ELEVATOR DIMENSIONS"]
Baseboard Cut-out: 1,500 mm x 120 mm
It should be noted these are only the dimensions of the existing prototype not a production model.
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head, then each half could be powered appropriately by the pickups. If the owner is expected to install track then there could be running or operational problems that might not be down to the Nelevator hardware itself.
I'm also worried that the Nelevator is being pitched at two roles, being a space saving device or a glorified display cabinet. I think it should be pitched clearly as a space saver and the design should be tweaked so that the stock is protected from damage while inside. The elevator beds need to have sides, imagine knocking one of these things that's fully loaded, where is the stock going to end up?
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head, then each half could be powered appropriately by the pickups. If the owner is expected to install track then there could be running or operational problems that might not be down to the Nelevator hardware itself.
I'm also worried that the Nelevator is being pitched at two roles, being a space saving device or a glorified display cabinet. I think it should be pitched clearly as a space saver and the design should be tweaked so that the stock is protected from damage while inside. The elevator beds need to have sides, imagine knocking one of these things that's fully loaded, where is the stock going to end up?
Off the rails but still inside the display unit. How clumsy are you? If you knock your layout what happens?
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head
Queue all the "I want Code xxx", "no, I want Code yyy" issues ::) How many variants would he need to make, hmmm ? Remember - this is a kit, not a 'take it out of the box & use' product ...
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 03:52:47 PM
Off the rails but still inside the display unit. How clumsy are you? If you knock your layout what happens?
Non-secured things can fall over. Vonzack, like others earlier in the thread, is making a perfectly valid design point. :poop: happens, no-one can guarantee they (or others) will
never knock against the layout with enough force to make things rock and potentially fall over, and are within their rights to ask that this is considered and mitigated.
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head, then each half could be powered appropriately by the pickups. If the owner is expected to install track then there could be running or operational problems that might not be down to the Nelevator hardware itself.
I'm also worried that the Nelevator is being pitched at two roles, being a space saving device or a glorified display cabinet. I think it should be pitched clearly as a space saver and the design should be tweaked so that the stock is protected from damage while inside. The elevator beds need to have sides, imagine knocking one of these things that's fully loaded, where is the stock going to end up?
Off the rails but still inside the display unit. How clumsy are you? If you knock your layout what happens?
Accidents happen GeorgeHGV, worst case you're talking about a loco dropping 1m through the cabinet hitting whatever on the way down possibly knocking that off as well, expensive dominos. If I remember correctly from TINGS, the prototype didn't have a closed bottom, maybe you could put some cushions down underneath it ;-)
If I knock my layout, the stock falls on it's side on the baseboard, not on the floor.
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 15, 2015, 04:02:12 PM
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head
Queue all the "I want Code xxx", "no, I want Code yyy" issues ::) How many variants would he need to make, hmmm ? Remember - this is a kit, not a 'take it out of the box & use' product ...
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 03:52:47 PM
Off the rails but still inside the display unit. How clumsy are you? If you knock your layout what happens?
Non-secured things can fall over. Vonzack, like others earlier in the thread, is making a perfectly valid design point. :poop: happens, no-one can guarantee they (or others) will never knock against the layout with enough force to make things rock and potentially fall over, and are within their rights to ask that this is considered and mitigated.
This thread is developing into an argument so for that reason "I'm out".
I like it, it suits me so I will buy one. The rest can decide what they want or don't want without me.
Mmmm. I ponder sometimes. Should Ferrari concentrate on performance or beauty? Should Apple have a dedicated telephone and a separate camera? Should beer only taste good and it doesn't matter what it smells like or looks like. Good design can accomplish more than one goal. Ferrari, Apple and Adnams seem to do a fine job of it! Rant over!
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 15, 2015, 04:02:12 PM
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head
Queue all the "I want Code xxx", "no, I want Code yyy" issues ::) How many variants would he need to make, hmmm ? Remember - this is a kit, not a 'take it out of the box & use' product ...
Agreed Mike, I think asking for which rail to install would leave too many options. When I was talking about making a rail head from the aluminium, I had in mind something like a loco lift you see at shows, made out of two sections of Aluminium angle and an insulator holding the two together. For me it wouldn't matter about the profile of the angle, it just needs to be 9mm apart and high enough to cope with 'pizza cutter' wheels. If stock Aluminium angle was used, it would probably provide the 'knock' protection and might be allot cheaper than the extrusion that was on display in the prototype.
I don't mind fitting my own track all :thumbsup: I know is I have an idea for a new layout in my head :hmmm: and I want one :drool: of these for it I just want know the dimensions of the production model and when I can get one Oh! and how much the production model is going to cost me.
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 15, 2015, 04:02:12 PM
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I think it would be better if the elevator beds didn't need to have track installed, it should either come pre-installed or the aluminium extrusion should be split in half and profiled so that it provides a rail head
Queue all the "I want Code xxx", "no, I want Code yyy" issues ::) How many variants would he need to make, hmmm ? Remember - this is a kit, not a 'take it out of the box & use' product ...
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 03:52:47 PM
Off the rails but still inside the display unit. How clumsy are you? If you knock your layout what happens?
Non-secured things can fall over. Vonzack, like others earlier in the thread, is making a perfectly valid design point. :poop: happens, no-one can guarantee they (or others) will never knock against the layout with enough force to make things rock and potentially fall over, and are within their rights to ask that this is considered and mitigated.
This thread is developing into an argument so for that reason "I'm out".
I like it, it suits me so I will buy one. The rest can decide what they want or don't want without me.
Thanks George. All these points are very good ones and ones that I've considered in depth. Yes, if you knock it hard, trains will tumble but it needs to be hard. It survived TINGS without an upset. One of my earlier designs had Perspex covers attached to the aluminium extrusions making it super safe but access becomes more difficult and of course more cost. The track question is equally valid. I can supply the track no problem but it means I have to get it delivered, pay for postage , stock it and post it on. I'm working really hard to keep costs down and meet our price target . It would be cheaper for the customer to buy there own track. It would be easy to design and build the ultimate elevator with every perceivable feature incorporated. Fantastic ! It would cost £2000 and nobody would buy it, sorry 2nd rant over. I'm off to the bar for a bottle of wine. Can't afford Chatteau so may have to compromise with a wee Rioja. Sorry sorry sorry.
Quote from: Vonzack on September 15, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
I'm also worried that the Nelevator is being pitched at two roles, being a space saving device or a glorified display cabinet. I think it should be pitched clearly as a space saver and the design should be tweaked so that the stock is protected from damage while inside. The elevator beds need to have sides, imagine knocking one of these things that's fully loaded, where is the stock going to end up?
Hi there,
I think its potential lies precisely in the fact that it does fulfil two roles - saving space and protecting/displaying stock when the layout is not in use. I can actually see this not being unacceptable to non-enthusiast family members as an item of "furniture" in a spare room etc.
Also, remember that due to the design up to half of the weight is below the baseboard. If knocked in any kind of normal operating conditions, I suspect you're talking about a deflection of only a few degrees. Some stock might be displaced, but I doubt it would be damaged. And, using the same principle as motorway Armco, the fact that all trains are usually coupled together on the unit would tend to mean they keep each other on the track. And the side and centre perspex spacers would prevent stock falling between the shelves. I actually think it would take considerable force to make a complete train - or even part of one - be dislodged enough to actually separate so vehicles can fall.
I think it's good to have these discussions, because these concerns are raised, the more people can consider the options and make an informed decision.
In terms of numbers, I think Allen is looking for an initial production of 50 units. That really isn't that many, and is eminently achievable given the amount of interest I saw displayed at TINGS.
I certainly want one!
cheers
Ben A.
If Caz hadn't shared her discovery, this is a product in the making that I likely would never have seen or heard of, but it is something I would gladly put my hand in my pocket to show commitment to. I appreciate that's not an ask of anyone specifically in this thread, but it is something I'd like to see succeed and something I'd love to own.
This device has been taking up an unusually high percentage of my mental processing time since heading back north from Leamington on Sunday. I was more than happy to express serious interest and would gladly have taken one away with me there and then!
It couldn't have come at a better time with Kirkholme having just been dismantled for its move to a new home. It was going to have another six inch board added during rebuild along the whole length at the back to cater for another five storage lines and two more lines in the current gap to the backscene. However, this has presented a new opportunity to both save space and add a greater number of new roads. My only concern was the length being too short for some of the fixed rakes I like to run but after a rough scribble in xtrkcad I came up with a potential solution:
Current storage yard:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/SD35ngf/kkyard1_zpslprduw4y.jpg)
Revised storage yard containing Nelevtionizer in same footprint from backscene to back of baseboard:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/SD35ngf/kkyard2_zpsmliqtdey.jpg)
This would allow at least three long storage roads in both up and down directions for, say, a couple of 86 + 9xMk3 rakes, 2x20 plus twenty odd HAAs, etc, plus a bypass line in each direction if there's room. About 85% of the rakes I have or plan to acquire (worked out on a spreadsheet while I really should have been doing some real work) would happily fit well within the 1400mm Nelevator. One of the Nelelvator lines would be bidirectional to turn back units for the bays.
Two bits have been chomped through already.
It's refreshing to see such innovation from these guys and with the similar well thought out developments and efforts from the gents at Revolution and DJM these are heady N gauge days indeed.
Im surprised noone has called it the Nelevator?
Here is a scan of the leaflet i picked up at TINGS for info (no other pics posted yet)
[smg id=29376 type=preview align=center caption="Nelevator 4"]
[smg id=29377 type=preview align=center caption="Nelevator 3"]
Quote from: Railwaygun on September 15, 2015, 07:54:51 PM
Im surprised noone has called it the Nelevator?
Here is a scan of the leaflet i picked up at TINGS for info (no other pics posted yet)
[smg id=29376 type=preview align=center caption="Nelevator 4"]
[smg id=29377 type=preview align=center caption="Nelevator 3"]
Go to the Nelevation website there are videos there.
Quote from: SD35 on September 15, 2015, 07:49:41 PM
This device has been taking up an unusually high percentage of my mental processing time since heading back north from Leamington on Sunday. I was more than happy to express serious interest and would gladly have taken one away with me there and then!
It couldn't have come at a better time with Kirkholme having just been dismantled for its move to a new home. It was going to have another six inch board added during rebuild along the whole length at the back to cater for another five storage lines and two more lines in the current gap to the backscene. However, this has presented a new opportunity to both save space and add a greater number of new roads. My only concern was the length being too short for some of the fixed rakes I like to run but after a rough scribble in xtrkcad I came up with a potential solution:
Current storage yard:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/SD35ngf/kkyard1_zpslprduw4y.jpg)
Revised storage yard containing Nelevtionizer in same footprint from backscene to back of baseboard:
(http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/SD35ngf/kkyard2_zpsmliqtdey.jpg)
This would allow at least three long storage roads in both up and down directions for, say, a couple of 86 + 9xMk3 rakes, 2x20 plus twenty odd HAAs, etc, plus a bypass line in each direction if there's room. About 85% of the rakes I have or plan to acquire (worked out on a spreadsheet while I really should have been doing some real work) would happily fit well within the 1400mm Nelevator. One of the Nelelvator lines would be bidirectional to turn back units for the bays.
Two bits have been chomped through already.
It's refreshing to see such innovation from these guys and with the similar well thought out developments and efforts from the gents at Revolution and DJM these are heady N gauge days indeed.
The Nelevation is available in two sizes NONE are 1400mm as that was a one off prototype.
Best not plan too much for the 1400mm in that case.
Contact Nelevation directly for proposed dimensions available.
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 08:13:22 PM
The Nelevation is available in two sizes NONE are 1400mm as that was a one off prototype.
Best not plan too much for the 1400mm in that case.
Contact Nelevation directly for proposed dimensions available.
Magic! If longer ones are proposed I could use one for the up yard and one for the down yard. :D
Quote from: SD35 on September 15, 2015, 08:19:13 PM
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 08:13:22 PM
The Nelevation is available in two sizes NONE are 1400mm as that was a one off prototype.
Best not plan too much for the 1400mm in that case.
Contact Nelevation directly for proposed dimensions available.
Magic! If longer ones are proposed I could use one for the up yard and one for the down yard. :D
My information suggests 1000mm and 2000mm versions will proceed.
This is a hugely interesting bit of kit...my only issue with it is that I don't want my rakes stored behind my back scene board to be in my eye line and visible..I suppose you could cover the unit front but I like the illusion of an unseen train arriving in the scenic area.
Quote from: Railwaygun on September 15, 2015, 07:54:51 PMIm surprised noone has called it the Nelevator?
You need to read each reply, why call it what we already know what it is called...
The brand is Nelevator, but it has come to be known as the Nelevator
Reply #69
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 10, 2015, 04:54:11 PM'Nelevator' is easier to vocalise than 'Nlift' would be - OK, Nelevation it is then.
Reply #82
Quote from: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 09:55:48 PMI am not sure about why the height is an issue - the Nelevator would have your layout's name printed on, and is intended to display the trains at the same time
Reply #85
Quote from: Ben A on September 11, 2015, 07:51:51 AMThe Nelevator has to sit both above and below baseboard level
:heart2: :laugh3: :claphappy: :laughabovepost: :D :bounce: :drool: were my thoughts on seeing Nelevation!
Then a sinking feeling hit home I have deigned my layout in a shed and don't leave stock there, which would mean transporting this lovely bit of kit back and for to my shed each time.
I am waiting to see the first production batch with interest though as I have two options for location and I am still tempted.
Graham
Quote from: mjkerr on September 15, 2015, 08:53:00 PM
Quote from: Railwaygun on September 15, 2015, 07:54:51 PMIm surprised noone has called it the Nelevator?
You need to read each reply, why call it what we already know what it is called...
The brand is Nelevator, but it has come to be known as the Nelevator
Reply #69
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on September 10, 2015, 04:54:11 PM'Nelevator' is easier to vocalise than 'Nlift' would be - OK, Nelevation it is then.
Reply #82
Quote from: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 09:55:48 PMI am not sure about why the height is an issue - the Nelevator would have your layout's name printed on, and is intended to display the trains at the same time
Reply #85
Quote from: Ben A on September 11, 2015, 07:51:51 AMThe Nelevator has to sit both above and below baseboard level
:sorrysign:
Actually it is called NELEVATiON.
Should be fairly obvious from the thread Title really.
Prefer to see a traditional fiddle yard with a fan of points and long tracks full of trains, more akin to a proper train yard, not something that (to me) resembles a chicken rotisserie :D
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on September 15, 2015, 09:00:49 PM
Prefer to see a traditional fiddle yard with a fan of points and long tracks full of trains, more akin to a proper train yard, not something that (to me) resembles a chicken rotisserie :D
Paul
Blimey Paul must be very long thin chickens up your way? :smiley-laughing:
Do they do home delivery thro the letter box? :confused1:
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 09:04:40 PM
Quote from: Sprintex on September 15, 2015, 09:00:49 PM
Prefer to see a traditional fiddle yard with a fan of points and long tracks full of trains, more akin to a proper train yard, not something that (to me) resembles a chicken rotisserie :D
Paul
Blimey Paul must be very long thin chickens up your way? :smiley-laughing:
Do they do home delivery thro the letter box? :confused1:
They only just fit through the letterbox George, and on occasion they get stuck in which case I have to 'pullet' :D (badoom-tish - I thang you)
Paul
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 08:57:11 PMActually it is called NELEVATiON
Perhaps you should re-read the website...
The Nelevator from Nelevation
The brand name and product name appear to have been settled upon now
Quote from: Sprintex on September 15, 2015, 09:12:58 PM
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 09:04:40 PM
Quote from: Sprintex on September 15, 2015, 09:00:49 PM
Prefer to see a traditional fiddle yard with a fan of points and long tracks full of trains, more akin to a proper train yard, not something that (to me) resembles a chicken rotisserie :D
Paul
Blimey Paul must be very long thin chickens up your way? :smiley-laughing:
Do they do home delivery thro the letter box? :confused1:
They only just fit through the letterbox George, and on occasion they get stuck in which case I have to 'pullet' :D (badoom-tish - I thang you)
Paul
Paul are you standing in for NN? Or just his warm up act? Suspect he will have something to add, he usually does! :laughabovepost:
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 09:20:53 PM
Paul are you standing in for NN? Or just his warm up act? Suspect he will have something to add, he usually does! :laughabovepost:
Might well be Paxo ::)
Yeah, I know ... these jokes are just fowl ...
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 15, 2015, 09:29:23 PM
Quote from: georgehgv on September 15, 2015, 09:20:53 PM
Paul are you standing in for NN? Or just his warm up act? Suspect he will have something to add, he usually does! :laughabovepost:
Might well be Paxo ::)
Yeah, I know ... these jokes are just fowl ...
So we won't start on plucking jokes then? ;)
Quote from: Only Me on September 15, 2015, 09:39:40 PM
Lets steer this ship back on course Gentlemen... :)
Oh dear. :-[
Someone had a bad day?
Quote from: Only Me on September 15, 2015, 09:53:18 PM
Not at all George, just filtering out the useless cr*p so other people dont have to waste their lives reading it, after all if i wanted a spit roast chicken there are other sites for that lol ;)
Will have to make a note for future reference, off topic and anything light hearted is a no no.
Quote from: Only Me on September 15, 2015, 09:39:40 PM
Lets steer this ship back on course Gentlemen... :)
How none PC we are not all gentlemen :P
Quote from: Ditape on September 15, 2015, 10:02:14 PM
Quote from: Only Me on September 15, 2015, 09:39:40 PM
Lets steer this ship back on course Gentlemen... :)
How none PC we are not all gentlemen :P
Obviously anyone not a gentleman is excused then
I'm trying hard to finalise the specifications for the Nelevator which I'll publish this weekend. It was mentioned to me at the show about constructing the storage lengths around standard peco track lengths so no track cutting. This seems very sensible (until peco go metric) so the Nelevator storage tracks will be 914mm and 1828mm (3ft and 6ft) maybe even 9ft but i need to confirm that. The motors may not be up to it. The system is counterbalanced for an empty stacker to ensure that backlash is only ever in one direction. So i have to load up the prototype with extra weight to simulate a 9ft version. Anyway how does 3ft and 6ft sound to the NGF. I'll circulate the full spec via e mail to all those that have given me e mail addresses. Bye!
A 6ft one would be very welcome indeed. :thumbsup:
I look forward to your findings, personally I cannot see a need for 9 foot length, if that is a full rake for Exhibitions I would imagine a suitable siding could be constructed to build that length from two shorter ones and couple together on the siding track. Bigger is not always better and possibly problematical.
The original size of approx 1.4M was perfect for me. I don't have space for the 6ft version and 3ft is too small as I need to run 8 coach + loco formations.
So unless it's the original dimension then I'm afraid "I'm out".
David
I agree George. Anyone that has room for that has room for a conventional fiddler
Very interesting David. I haven't had much feedback to say I guessed the right length first time! Either too long or too short. Leave it with me.
Quote from: Nelevation on September 16, 2015, 03:39:57 PM
I agree George. Anyone that has room for that has room for a conventional fiddler
You also create a logistics problem at that size, no Estate Car will be any good so something the size of a Sprinter would be needed. Where would you store it and I would imagine that size would be pretty fragile as well.
Quote from: Thorpe Parva on September 16, 2015, 03:39:40 PM
The original size of approx 1.4M was perfect for me. I don't have space for the 6ft version and 3ft is too small as I need to run 8 coach + loco formations.
So unless it's the original dimension then I'm afraid "I'm out".
David
I thoroughly agree David. I think it was right first time, not often that gets said! :D
Quote from: Nelevation on September 16, 2015, 03:44:06 PM
Very interesting David. I haven't had much feedback to say I guessed the right length first time! Either too long or too short. Leave it with me.
Perhaps people like myself who saw the prototype at TINGS assumed that this would be the dimensions of the production model so didn't really need to comment.
The original prototype would be fine for me but if 6 ft is to be the final production size I would probably not be able to fit one into my available space and the shorter length of 3 ft would be to short for me as a full HST set would not fit.
You got it just about right straight out of the gate :thumbsup:
I don't see the need for the length of the unit to match the track
Provided the measurements are known then the purchaser can cut the track as required, plus the additional pieces will all be the same length
One standard piece and one cut piece can then be inserted and if the cut piece is to long trimmed down
The advice would be to cut one piece too long and trim down
A rough measurement could be provided, but flexitrack isn't always the same length
Equally, some people may prefer to use setrack, and again as these lengths are known it may be easier
Furthermore, there would be no need to worry about interfact between Code 80 and Code 55 as the refining mode would only have to deal with track height
As previous, I suspect a survey should be carried out to find out the length of trains expect to be stored
The main advantage is the tracks are all the same length, whilst a fiddle yard typically has varying lengths
As an example on mine I can store two full length HST, but the furthest tracks can only store a loco and 6 coaches
Quote from: Thorpe Parva on September 16, 2015, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: Nelevation on September 16, 2015, 03:44:06 PM
Very interesting David. I haven't had much feedback to say I guessed the right length first time! Either too long or too short. Leave it with me.
Perhaps people like myself who saw the prototype at TINGS assumed that this would be the dimensions of the production model so didn't really need to comment.
The nail has been hit on the head there.
I would suspect that 3' will be too short for most people and 9' way too long.
6' would be good for me - 1.3m is too short.
Perhaps 3', 4'6" and 6' would cover most bases.
Quote from: Ian Morton on September 16, 2015, 04:02:06 PM
I would suspect that 3' will be too short for most people and 9' way too long.
6' would be good for me - 1.3m is too short.
Perhaps 3', 4'6" and 6' would cover most bases.
If commercially viable then that would seem to make a lot of sense.
Quote from: Thorpe Parva on September 16, 2015, 04:13:51 PM
Quote from: Ian Morton on September 16, 2015, 04:02:06 PM
I would suspect that 3' will be too short for most people and 9' way too long.
6' would be good for me - 1.3m is too short.
Perhaps 3', 4'6" and 6' would cover most bases.
If commercially viable then that would seem to make a lot of sense.
By being in modules with approximately 450mm increments then perhaps some of the components could be shared between three sizes? Thereby enabling bulk buying of certain sized pieces?
Very good point. The trouble with democracy. Ask 3 people what they want and you'll get 4 different answers
Quote from: Nelevation on September 16, 2015, 04:44:19 PM
Very good point. The trouble with democracy. Ask 3 people what they want and you'll get 4 different answers
And in this case sizes ! Decisions decisions ?
If you run prototypical trains anything shorter than 3m is no good. Don't forget that on any exhibition layout that runs a reasonable amount of stock, the layout will be between 18ft to 25ft long. Most of the rear space will be taken over by the fiddle yard to hold the stock. if big enough it will be sectioned to hold more than one train on each track. A HST will take up 6tf to 7ft of space, then there re all the other trains that are longer than this. I think that the Nelevation is an excellent idea for the simple reason of how much space you will save in having 20 trains stacked vertically instead of horizontally a the rear of your layout, and you will still have room to put in a small fiddle yard to hold all the short stock that doesn't need a lot of space. So as I said it earlier it has to be 3m for me otherwise the cost of £600 to hold 20 loco's with a couple of trucks each in 3ft against 20 loco's with block trains in 9ft is far more advantageous. seeing how it is constructed out of a one piece alloy extrusion it wouldn't make a vast difference to the cost. most metals these days are supplied in 3m and 6m lengths, anything shorter than that needs to be cut so you can end up paying more for less.
Quote from: Northern Git on September 16, 2015, 07:02:56 PM
If you run prototypical trains anything shorter than 3m is no good. Don't forget that on any exhibition layout that runs a reasonable amount of stock, the layout will be between 18ft to 25ft long. Most of the rear space will be taken over by the fiddle yard to hold the stock. if big enough it will be sectioned to hold more than one train on each track. A HST will take up 6tf to 7ft of space, then there re all the other trains that are longer than this. I think that the Nelevation is an excellent idea for the simple reason of how much space you will save in having 20 trains stacked vertically instead of horizontally a the rear of your layout, and you will still have room to put in a small fiddle yard to hold all the short stock that doesn't need a lot of space. So as I said it earlier it has to be 3m for me otherwise the cost of £600 to hold 20 loco's with a couple of trucks each in 3ft against 20 loco's with block trains in 9ft is far more advantageous. seeing how it is constructed out of a one piece alloy extrusion it wouldn't make a vast difference to the cost. most metals these days are supplied in 3m and 6m lengths, anything shorter than that needs to be cut so you can end up paying more for less.
As the saying goes "you cant please all the people all the time " .
Quote from: Northern Git on September 16, 2015, 07:02:56 PM
A HST will take up 6tf to 7ft of space,
A prototypical 2+8 HST is five feet and half an inch long ;)
(http://www.sprintexnet.co.uk/Images/res%20090521%20HST%20length.JPG)
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on September 16, 2015, 07:59:15 PM
Quote from: Northern Git on September 16, 2015, 07:02:56 PM
A HST will take up 6tf to 7ft of space,
A prototypical 2+8 HST is five feet and half an inch long ;)
(http://www.sprintexnet.co.uk/Images/res%20090521%20HST%20length.JPG)
Paul
Haha Paul, real ruler not a Fishermans.
Oops forgot must stay on topic, no funnies. :-[
Quote from: Ian Morton on September 16, 2015, 04:02:06 PM
I would suspect that 3' will be too short for most people and 9' way too long.
6' would be good for me - 1.3m is too short.
Perhaps 3', 4'6" and 6' would cover most bases.
For me 6" 6' or 2m would be optimum too, nice long container train there! ;)
Is there any chance the Nelevation could be in connectable 3ft modules with the electrical gubbins being fitted at the furthermost end such that folks could build whatever size they need? :dunce:
I'd be looking at it being long enough for an engine and ten mark 1s. which conveniently fits within two flexitrack lengths. (all my fiddle yard sidings are that same length)
With the newer photos/scan of the leaflet it seems alot clearer that all of the electronics and mechanisms are at either end -
@Nelevation (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4736) could that mean that the length could be customized simply by cutting down the extruded sections, perspex covers etc?
Given the already heated discussion over what length would be best for individuals - is there an argument to have a fixed price for the "end units" and then supply the extruded sections priced "by the foot" so people could build it however they needed?
i suppose that way someone could even start out with a 4ft unit and then if they get more space a couple of years later buy longer extruded sections from you to rebuild it as a 6, 8 or 10ft unit - a way to generate repeat business as we know everyone always wants a bigger layout!
The latest updates to Nelevator by Nelevation seem a revelation.
Hopefully the proposals suit most needs and as many as possible are satisfied with the proposed dimensions.
I look forward to more details as time progresses.
Now that the three options are being suggested, I was able to measure my fiddle yard baseboards and decide what options would be best
At worst, one long unit crossing both baseboards, and holding them together
The medium will just fit within a 6' baseboard
I can then use this for all my loco hauled trains
An exit track can also be included extending to the other baseboard
The small could also be included
I can then use this for all my DMU and locos
Again, an exit track can also be included extending to the other baseboard
Finally, the reverser track with one spare track can then run round both of them, storing the two HST
Total storage of 42 tracks, against the current 25
Quote from: mjkerr on September 18, 2015, 08:47:09 PM
Now that the three options are being suggested, I was able to measure my fiddle yard baseboards and decide what options would be best
At worst, one long unit crossing both baseboards, and holding them together
The medium will just fit within a 6' baseboard
I can then use this for all my loco hauled trains
An exit track can also be included extending to the other baseboard
The small could also be included
I can then use this for all my DMU and locos
Again, an exit track can also be included extending to the other baseboard
Finally, the reverser track with one spare track can then run round both of them, storing the two HST
Total storage of 42 tracks, against the current 25
A happy bunny until the cost?
Quote from: georgehgv on September 18, 2015, 08:50:18 PMA happy bunny until the cost?
Estimated cost is £600 per unit, plus track
That equates to the track, points, and point motors already in place
Several of the points and point motors can be removed then sold
If it provides a better solution and more capacity it is well worth it
Quote from: mjkerr on September 18, 2015, 09:19:11 PM
Quote from: georgehgv on September 18, 2015, 08:50:18 PMA happy bunny until the cost?
Estimated cost is £600 per unit, plus track
That equates to the track, points, and point motors already in place
Several of the points and point motors can be removed then sold
If it provides a better solution and more capacity it is well worth it
I could not have put that better myself, and do not forget the baseboard and time saved. Ingenious idea and cannot wait to get my hands on one.
Quote from: georgehgv on September 18, 2015, 09:26:48 PMdo not forget the baseboard and time saved. Ingenious idea and cannot wait to get my hands on one
The baseboard cost remains the same
Equally, I do not see how this saves me time, as I will need to remove the existing track, amend the wiring, cut the baseboard, construct the kit, test the kit, install the kit, test again, complete the wiring
Quote from: Jools on September 17, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
With the newer photos/scan of the leaflet it seems alot clearer that all of the electronics and mechanisms are at either end -
@Nelevation (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4736) could that mean that the length could be customized simply by cutting down the extruded sections, perspex covers etc?
Given the already heated discussion over what length would be best for individuals - is there an argument to have a fixed price for the "end units" and then supply the extruded sections priced "by the foot" so people could build it however they needed?
i suppose that way someone could even start out with a 4ft unit and then if they get more space a couple of years later buy longer extruded sections from you to rebuild it as a 6, 8 or 10ft unit - a way to generate repeat business as we know everyone always wants a bigger layout!
That would be an amazing concept, customized orders from the website so everyone gets their perfect length!
Want to roll your own?
Here are some great ideas: :drool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CppaVdjArPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CppaVdjArPs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsFXwtoyHBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsFXwtoyHBA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwzyy-Ern04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwzyy-Ern04)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ihI3Ojyx4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ihI3Ojyx4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpEvBUAKhA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpEvBUAKhA)
Amazing!! :goggleeyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5Pe7t2E6M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5Pe7t2E6M)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT18-mXE6ng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT18-mXE6ng)
CFJ
Quote from: G_N_E_R on September 19, 2015, 04:57:47 PM
Quote from: Jools on September 17, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
With the newer photos/scan of the leaflet it seems alot clearer that all of the electronics and mechanisms are at either end -
@Nelevation (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4736) could that mean that the length could be customized simply by cutting down the extruded sections, perspex covers etc?
Given the already heated discussion over what length would be best for individuals - is there an argument to have a fixed price for the "end units" and then supply the extruded sections priced "by the foot" so people could build it however they needed?
i suppose that way someone could even start out with a 4ft unit and then if they get more space a couple of years later buy longer extruded sections from you to rebuild it as a 6, 8 or 10ft unit - a way to generate repeat business as we know everyone always wants a bigger layout!
That would be an amazing concept, customized orders from the website so everyone gets their perfect length!
I really like the idea of an upgradeable solution thank you for the sugestion. The majority of the cost is in the electronics, motors, gears, pulleys and belts so an upgrade kit really works. Its not quite that simple, but I would say that! :D The extrusions, even in kit form, will come as a bonded assembly with the stacker ends as its really important to assemble this module square. There is also the top vallance and perspex dust cover which would need to be upgraded but it would certainly be a lot lot cheaper than buying a complete new unit. We will definately add this as an option.
I wouldn't would like to keep the basic versions to 3 sizes as this allows this minimizes cost but for those more adventurous I could offer the basic componets in individual parts so you could cut down to suit. Maybe even a 9ft version!
Regarding cost, I am working hard on the BoM and am confident that we will reach are target cost indicated at the show. This activity is going to take until mid November at which point we will relase an official price list.
If anyone would like a copy of the technical specifications pdf please e mail me. info@nelevation.com .I would attache a copy but cant work out how to attach a file. can someone help ??? ???
cheers
Best regards
Allen
Quote from: Nelevation on September 21, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
Regarding cost, I am working hard on the BoM
I guess now is as good a time as any to advise you avoid free postage :no: ;)
Quote from: NinOz on September 20, 2015, 03:24:56 PM
Want to roll your own?
Here are some great ideas: :drool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CppaVdjArPs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CppaVdjArPs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsFXwtoyHBA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsFXwtoyHBA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwzyy-Ern04 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwzyy-Ern04)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ihI3Ojyx4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ihI3Ojyx4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpEvBUAKhA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpEvBUAKhA)
Amazing!! :goggleeyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5Pe7t2E6M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5Pe7t2E6M)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT18-mXE6ng (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT18-mXE6ng)
CFJ
I really like the Depsito verticale. I havent seen that one. An elegant solution.
Quote from: newportnobby on September 21, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: Nelevation on September 21, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
Regarding cost, I am working hard on the BoM
I guess now is as good a time as any to advise you avoid free postage :no: ;)
Yes indeed! we've had enquiries from New zealand, india and Germany. Free postage would be difficult. cheers.
Quote from: Nelevation on September 21, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on September 21, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: Nelevation on September 21, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
Regarding cost, I am working hard on the BoM
I guess now is as good a time as any to advise you avoid free postage :no: ;)
Yes indeed! we've had enquiries from New zealand, india and Germany. Free postage would be difficult. cheers.
We overseas folks don't mind paying postage so long as the VAT can be deducted :D But you will have to build your business up to a certain size before you can do that for us...
Regardless, I for one am very interested. As others have said it innovates both from an aesthetic as well as a space saving perspective. A quick question: what power source do you plan to use? In other words will those of us using a wimpy 110V AC have problems?
Quote from: Chetcombe on September 22, 2015, 06:30:39 AM
Quote from: Nelevation on September 21, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on September 21, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: Nelevation on September 21, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
Regarding cost, I am working hard on the BoM
I guess now is as good a time as any to advise you avoid free postage :no: ;)
Yes indeed! we've had enquiries from New zealand, india and Germany. Free postage would be difficult. cheers.
We overseas folks don't mind paying postage so long as the VAT can be deducted :D But you will have to build your business up to a certain size before you can do that for us...
Regardless, I for one am very interested. As others have said it innovates both from an aesthetic as well as a space saving perspective. A quick question: what power source do you plan to use? In other words will those of us using a wimpy 110V AC have problems?
[/quot
Thanks for the question and interest in the product. You will be fine with the power supply provided which gives a 12v DC input to the system. Cheers Allen
Nelevator will be at the Peterborough Show this weekend, another good reason to visit on Saturday or Sunday.
I am hoping to get there and have another awe inspiring demonstration now that Geominster is part way through modification to fit the gem.
Plenty of interest at Peterborough for this great product. Looking forward to receiving my order so I can progress my layout.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/15/thumb_30546.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30546)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/15/thumb_30549.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30549)
I took a good look at this at TINGs and then looked at how much it would cost me for the next layout.
I need to store 14 trains in each direction. That means TWO Nelevation units side-by-side. (£1700 or £1900 rounded price)
Sadly I'm not made of money.......
Les
How much for fiddle yards for that lot then by comparison?
And the rent for the storage room?
Rough estimate for points, motors, and flexitrack about £900 :thumbsup:
I'd rather have the numerous tracks and fans of points any day, looks more like a train yard ;)
Paul
For mine- no motors, and the layout will be no wider. Cost therefore is just £300 for the points and whatever the streamline in between them costs- two trains per siding if I use the whole layout length. Maybe a maximum outlay of £500 spread over a few months.
The current layout has only ONE motor in use at a show, the Dapol signal on the front. All points out front are wire-in-tube and the ones in the yard are worked by the magic finger- digital control at its cheapest and most reliable.
As to width, the new layout will be 33 ins wide, like its predecessor. It will live in my shed and travel in a Citroen Picasso, like the current one does- two operators, all bags and all stock travel in the car with the layout. How much extra space would I need in the car to package up two Nelevation units?
Les
Having seen this mentioned elsewhere on the NGF, I have been seriously considering this as an option. It will be a major space saver and will give me greater train storage capacity than a conventional fiddle yard in the space I have available. Fortunately I am slow at getting my act together and have not started on a new layout since moving home last December. So I can easily incorporate it in to my plans if that is the way I choose to go. It ticks all the boxes for me so far, yes it may be expensive, but it is a piece of precision engineering both mechanically and electronically. Like all products it will be of great use to some and not others. The statement "you can't please all of the people all of the time" is very true!
Quote from: 25901JFM on October 24, 2015, 04:36:06 PM
Having seen this mentioned elsewhere on the NGF, I have been seriously considering this as an option. It will be a major space saver and will give me greater train storage capacity than a conventional fiddle yard in the space I have available. Fortunately I am slow at getting my act together and have not started on a new layout since moving home last December. So I can easily incorporate it in to my plans if that is the way I choose to go. It ticks all the boxes for me so far, yes it may be expensive, but it is a piece of precision engineering both mechanically and electronically. Like all products it will be of great use to some and not others. The statement "you can't please all of the people all of the time" is very true!
It is very cost effective but factor in the space you save and certainly in my case I can show my trains in an attractive display unit without getting them dusty, at last someone who actually has a positive attitude.
Cost effective? Debatable- it depends what you compare it with.
Gives a display case for a home layout? Yes.
Saves space in a home layout? Yes.
Portable and exhibition friendly - not to put on a 10 foot by 33 inch roundy-roundy that travels by car. Note I need the 33 inches not just for the fiddle yard width but for a manageable radius at the ends. The system would theoretically take 9 inches off the layout depth but leave me with 9 inch curves on the inside.
As an exhibition manager of a small show I have to keep costs down. So do others in my position. If the extra travelling space needed to prevent this system being broken in transit changes a layout like mine from "fuel for cars" to "van hire plus fuel" then it makes it less likely I can afford to have that layout at my show. Generally a OO roundy-roundy needs a van and an N-gauge one doesn't. This is why N-gauge roundy-roundy layouts get more show invites than many of their larger brethren.
Horses for courses. This system is fine for a home-based layout but not for me.
Les
This is a sophisticated and complex piece of gear.
wot happens when it goes wrong.........?
Just a thought,,,,,,,
Quote from: Agrippa on October 25, 2015, 12:28:25 AM
This is a sophisticated and complex piece of gear.
wot happens when it goes wrong.........?
Replacement bus service :laugh:
Paul
Folks
If it is not for you that is fine! I wonder why the need to post negatives though!
I think Alan and team accept they can't provide the perfect solution for everyone but in general my view is it looks great.
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Sprintex on October 25, 2015, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Agrippa on October 25, 2015, 12:28:25 AM
This is a sophisticated and complex piece of gear.
wot happens when it goes wrong.........?
Replacement bus service :laugh:
Paul
In an Alternate Universe where other laws apply I pressed the"LikeIt" button, , ,
but here in this Mbrane I have to add to the length and say
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Quote from: georgehgv on October 24, 2015, 05:25:03 PM
at last someone who actually has a positive attitude.
Oh please dont !
I rather like the Nelevation idea. While it's not for everyone, it does provide a pretty stylish way of displaying stock that's not directly in use and keeping it safe and ready to run.
While wondering about the problem of storing larger numbers of trains with it though, I thought of a modification. A lot of us use cassette style fiddle yards (typically on end-to-end style layouts) where you just plug the cassette into the end of the layout and the train runs off, through and off the other side (or on and back). I was wondering if it would be practical to do a quick feed cassette system for the Nelevation. The easiest of course, would simply to be to have a set of points where it feeds the trains out at the bottom running to where a cassette can be plugged in at the side (or back) of the layout. So you can quickly run a new train in to the elevator from a cassette or unload one from the nellievator to a cassette. The other one would involve a bit of a modification though and would be to have a second 'door' at the top of the unit where a cassette could be plugged in to load trains into it.
Adding cassettes would make it a very practical system for storage of stock as you'd be able to have 7 in action at once on the nellivator and as many as you want ready to swap in on cassettes.
Quote from: Zwilnik on October 25, 2015, 01:08:10 AMThe easiest of course, would simply to be to have a set of points where it feeds the trains out at the bottom running to where a cassette can be plugged in
,
other one would involve a bit of a modification though and would be to have a second 'door' at the top (**) of the unit where a cassette could be plugged in to load trains into it.
Nice thinking !
(dare I say "out of the box" ? or even "lateral" ? :) )
(**) or at any convenient intermediate level maybe,,,,
above or below baseboard but 'off scene' / fiddle,,,
still thinking aloud on this ,,,
,,,,,
I dunno, but I am still thinking about how this differs from a traverser ?
Ok so it is rotated thro 90deg, it goes up and down instead of side to side, but each have (potentially) two ways in and two ways out,
the lefthand in/out can be connected to the layout as a terminus, the right hand can be connected to the other bit of the (a) interrupted roundy-roundy,, or even to a cassete system as Z. says
Sorry if this is off topic, or not Georgehgv,
or maybe I should shut up and go to bed,
or maybe we need a @mod split topic to discuss the 'idea' away from (appearing to crit. and, by default unappreciative of the sliced bread,,) the particular thingie ?
IMHO (in my HUMBLE opinion) I doubt that the Nelevator was designed to be taken on tour or hold train lengths that would need enormous rooms to accommodate them lest alone a track long enough to run them, I believe it was intended for the average modeller that is stuck for space for a fiddle yard in an average house and to that end I also believe this is a great idea and that is why I ordered one and I am looking forward to the day it arrives.
I am after all Mr Average and it fits my desires. If Mr Exhibition or Mr Mansion don't agree that is their choice to buy or not, or perhaps they can go one better and design what does suit them and not keep putting this product down, someone said you can't please all the people all the time.
Quote from: georgehgv on October 25, 2015, 05:28:55 AMand not keep putting this product down,
That is the problem, it seems that anyone who doesnt bubble over with enthusiasm and a healthy glow is seen as "not positive" (one of your earlier posts) or even as anti-
so that is why I think another thread about the general idea, the concept, and not
this specific product would be good,
then we could leave Alan in peace to get on with his brilliant idea whilst we got on with some humble chat ?
In fact, now that it has reached the commercial marketing stage I suppose any more umble opinion and comment from me is a waste of my typing finger
so I shall (maybe!) not appear in this thread again {edit : Duh! Didnt take me long to break that !! :laugh: } and umbly suggest that it is nolonger a "N Gauge Discussion" section topic ? {EDIT : maybe now a "Review" section candidate ? }
Enjoy your elevator George :)
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 25, 2015, 01:44:53 AM
or at any convenient intermediate level
For an orrible moment I thought I had fallen into a previous conceptual trap, in that we need always to access a Vertical Transporter such as the Nelevator by its middle road.
However in the case of Zwilnik's Casette Injection Manifold (!) I think it could be at any level because the normal action of the transporter and the rest of the layout could then be used to move the inserted train to any of the other levels, , , ?
sorry for quoting myself :)
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 25, 2015, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 25, 2015, 01:44:53 AM
or at any convenient intermediate level
For an orrible moment I thought I had fallen into a previous conceptual trap, in that we need always to access a Vertical Transporter such as the Nelevator by its middle road.
However in the case of Zwilnik's Casette Injection Manifold (!) I think it could be at any level because the normal action of the transporter and the rest of the layout could then be used to move the inserted train to any of the other levels, , , ?
sorry for quoting myself :)
It would be very interesting for a multi-level mountain railway layout. Either alongside helixes in the mountains or as the system for elevating the trains through the levels. Train passes, goes into a tunnel and as you're watching another train pass at a different level the original train (having been nellievated) appears from a tunnel at another level.
I think it's important to see the Nelevator as what it is and can do and not what it's not suitable for. It isn't important to make a product that suits everybody just one that works well for the task and customers it's intended for. If there is a market for the exhibition customers then maybe a 'pro' version can be developed specifically for them if there's the demand. But after the main version is done ;)
Quote from: red_death on October 25, 2015, 12:34:03 AM
I wonder why the need to post negatives though!
I'm not sure people are "posting negatives", rather they are (or seem to be) posting
memento mori (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori) ...
If the only things posted are along the lines of "OMG ! This is
better than sliced bread ! I need twenty
NOW !" (OK, an exaggeration - but
not by very much !) then Alan
et al are given a wholly one-sided view that things are golden and rosy & he'll be a millionaire by Christmas ...
I see nothing wrong with people having
and posting a different view-point, and indeed feel the attacks against those who
aren't caught in the thrall are frankly out of order ... These people are entitled to post their own opinion, after all. Anything else is akin to censorship at best, (and I won't go down the "at worst").
A positive view on Nelevation in the Autumn issue of N Gauge Now. How refreshing to see enthusiasm and encouragement for the creator instead if criticisms in this thread. Long may good words be said. :claphappy:
Nelevator at Warley this weekend final few orders needed to start manufacture, make sure this happens and pledge your support and sign up please.
Nelevator Project Update
View this email in your browser
Nelevator Project Update
Dear Nelevators,
As we approach our first milestone in realising our goal to achieve 50 orders for the Nelevator before 18th December, it is with great excitement and some surprise that I can inform you that we already have 42 confirmed orders!
With the Warley show coming up this weekend and press articles coming up in Model Rail and British Railway Modeller (with a free DVD showing the Nelly in action!) I am extremely confident that we will reach our target and take the project into production.
I have been overwhelmed by the kind words and support you have given. I still can't believe how well the concept has been received and how quickly we have reached the point of committing to manufacture. Thank you to everyone for your support. We are really proud to be bringing Nelevation to life.
Our Next Show
Since first exhibiting the Nelevator at TINGS, only back in September, we've been to The National Festival in Peterborough and will be at Warley this weekend.
Unfortunately, as we booked late, we will only have a 6 foot stand so won't be able to bring the demo layout. But we'll be there with the Nelevator in action, and we'll have a video of it in operation, so hopefully we'll get some more interest.
Productionisation
Richard and I have been working hard on the industrialisation of the design for production, technical refinement and continued testing to ensure that we comply to relevant electrical and safety standards and produce a robust, reliable product.
We are about to commit to a new circuit board design that will eliminate some electrical noise issues we've been having, but in addition will incorporate an extra serial connector which will allow for future development of accessories and full DCC communication.
We have now finalised our component supply chain and will be ordering an initial batch of 5 units to test the supply chain and allow us to continue testing on multiple units and submit one for electrical emissions and susceptibility testing.
I will update you all again immediately after the December deadline to confirm our plans for production. In January, we will be asking for the 50% deposit which will contribute to tooling costs and stock build. Building the order list has been a great help as it has primarily given us the drive and enthusiasm to carry on but also allowed us to understand the split in size variants required.
Early Bird Discount
If you haven't already placed an order, please remember that the early supporters 10% discount ends on the 18th December, so place your order now!
Thank you all again for your amazing support. I am aware that it requires a lot of trust in us and I can assure you that we will bring this product to market.
Future Shows
We have already committed to exhibiting at Model Rail Scotland in February and are hoping to be at York in March. In the meantime, we hope to see you at Warley this weekend.
Many Thanks from all at the Nelevation team:
Richard "the sparks" Farrar, who has developed all the electronics and software, Jeannie, Sue, Jack and Jackie.
Also big thanks to our extraordinary, volunteer publicity duo of George and Peter for spreading the Nelevation word at every opportunity.
All the best,
Allen
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Make that 43. The Kato points in my fiddle yard are starting to play up...
Quote from: Railwaygun on November 27, 2015, 01:12:44 AM
Nelevator Project Update
View this email in your browser
Nelevator Project Update
Dear Nelevators,
As we approach our first milestone in realising our goal to achieve 50 orders for the Nelevator before 18th December, it is with great excitement and some surprise that I can inform you that we already have 42 confirmed orders!
With the Warley show coming up this weekend and press articles coming up in Model Rail and British Railway Modeller (with a free DVD showing the Nelly in action!) I am extremely confident that we will reach our target and take the project into production.
I have been overwhelmed by the kind words and support you have given. I still can't believe how well the concept has been received and how quickly we have reached the point of committing to manufacture. Thank you to everyone for your support. We are really proud to be bringing Nelevation to life.
Our Next Show
Since first exhibiting the Nelevator at TINGS, only back in September, we've been to The National Festival in Peterborough and will be at Warley this weekend.
Unfortunately, as we booked late, we will only have a 6 foot stand so won't be able to bring the demo layout. But we'll be there with the Nelevator in action, and we'll have a video of it in operation, so hopefully we'll get some more interest.
Productionisation
Richard and I have been working hard on the industrialisation of the design for production, technical refinement and continued testing to ensure that we comply to relevant electrical and safety standards and produce a robust, reliable product.
We are about to commit to a new circuit board design that will eliminate some electrical noise issues we've been having, but in addition will incorporate an extra serial connector which will allow for future development of accessories and full DCC communication.
We have now finalised our component supply chain and will be ordering an initial batch of 5 units to test the supply chain and allow us to continue testing on multiple units and submit one for electrical emissions and susceptibility testing.
I will update you all again immediately after the December deadline to confirm our plans for production. In January, we will be asking for the 50% deposit which will contribute to tooling costs and stock build. Building the order list has been a great help as it has primarily given us the drive and enthusiasm to carry on but also allowed us to understand the split in size variants required.
Early Bird Discount
If you haven't already placed an order, please remember that the early supporters 10% discount ends on the 18th December, so place your order now!
Thank you all again for your amazing support. I am aware that it requires a lot of trust in us and I can assure you that we will bring this product to market.
Future Shows
We have already committed to exhibiting at Model Rail Scotland in February and are hoping to be at York in March. In the meantime, we hope to see you at Warley this weekend.
Many Thanks from all at the Nelevation team:
Richard "the sparks" Farrar, who has developed all the electronics and software, Jeannie, Sue, Jack and Jackie.
Also big thanks to our extraordinary, volunteer publicity duo of George and Peter for spreading the Nelevation word at every opportunity.
All the best,
Allen
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Just to clarify, this is the email circulated to those who expressed interest in Nelevator and is the latest great news. George
It's a very neat concept, and actually not that much more expensive than all the points, wiring, trackwork and motors if it comes in at £600-800.
I can see it having a good market in the US. They seem to love long trains, multi levels and automation over there, so this would be ideal.
Hope you guys can get it into production :laugh3:
Hello all,
My understanding is that the take up at Warley was such that Allen has reached the 50-or-so order total he needed, and production will ensue.
I am not sure if he is taking further orders, or whether that's it for now. If you're interested I suggest emailing him.
cheers
Ben A.
I have ordered a short ready made before warley, as I thought the take up would kick off at/after the show. Saw the guys at warley too and had a look at exactly how it works. Looks great and saved me enough room on my fiddle yard board to put in a refuelling depot.
I have been reading these posts with interest and saw the nelevator at warley. It looks interesting and the cost is probably comparable to an equivalent fiddle yard with points etc. Not sure about cost against a traverser though. Also of course you have to pay for the whole thing at once.
That said it looked a very neat system and it does provide a good storage facility for logos as well.
I may be looking to buy one soon myself if I can raise the cash
Quote from: Biggy on December 03, 2015, 04:26:42 PM
I have been reading these posts with interest and saw the nelevator at warley. It looks interesting and the cost is probably comparable to an equivalent fiddle yard with points etc. Not sure about cost against a traverser though. Also of course you have to pay for the whole thing at once.
That said it looked a very neat system and it does provide a good storage facility for logos as well.
I may be looking to buy one soon myself if I can raise the cash
It comes with a free logo!!
[smg id=32575 type=preview align=center caption="image"]
I just discovered "Nelevation" in my NGS mag and have since visited the website - several times ! Congratulations to the developer(s). Fantastic initiative. The unit looks well built and certainly compares price-wise with a decent sized fiddle yard. I will be ordering one when the DCC control aspect is sorted - unless of course the manufacturer would be willing to offer a later upgrade at reasonable cost. Presumably this would only involve some retrofitting of electronic gubbins that could be carried out by the purchaser ??
I do hope the logo is for exhibitions only. Something alot more discreet for production models please ;-)
Anybody seen this :goggleeyes: .....?
http://www.nelevation.com/ (http://www.nelevation.com/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAPD5bakW5o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAPD5bakW5o)
Yes.
It was at TINGS last year. There's also an existing thread about it somewhere on this forum. Cost around £600 as I recall.
Looks like the indexing could do with some improvement, although the vertical misalignment does give you a bit of a "clickety-clack".
Quote from: Jon898 on February 04, 2016, 04:09:23 PMLooks like the indexing could do with some improvement, although the vertical misalignment does give you a bit of a "clickety-clack"
From memory the video clearly states it is a pre-production sample
This was corrected some time ago and with an even finer calibration process
If you have a large exhibition layout, it would be worth every penny. However, a bit big and expensive for a small home layout.
Quote from: Malc on February 04, 2016, 10:47:01 PM
If you have a large exhibition layout, it would be worth every penny. However, a bit big and expensive for a small home layout.
I'd have said precisely the opposite! For an exhibition layout I think it'd be tricky to make it portable; in my mind, the Nelevator is likely to be top-heavy, and unstable, so would work better against (or mounted to) a wall.
The advantages of it (space saving, and the ability to display your trains) would serve little purpose for exhibitions, but would be perfect for home use.
As for the expense, yes it does seem very pricey, but when you consider the cost of the equivalent-sized fiddle yard with track, points, point motors etc. it's somewhat of a bargain IMHO, not to mention the space saving.
I think it's brilliant, and I hope it's the success it deserves to be. I'm just bummed that I didn't invent it... :(
A few years ago i remember seeing the German version of this system (this system is better in my opinion), but i do wonder about the weight and stability of it, as i'd probably get one for Old Elm Common to get rid of the need of lots of point and track and 1 huge fiddle yard.
I'm going to wait and see on this one and hear reports accordingly before i commit.
Cheers
Dave
Nelevator Production Update
It's been a little while since you last heard from us (and we certainly don't want to pester you with unwarranted junk e-mails), but a lot has been happening at Nelevation HQ in preparation for the production of the first batch of Nelevator units, so we thought it was about time to tear ourselves away from the "Nelly" workshop for a little bit to let you know what we've been up to recently.
"Nelly" Goes to Scotland
Last year "Nelly" went to three shows in England, so in February we thought it was about time she broadened her horizons with a trip across the northern border to Scotland.
Nelly in ScotlandWe had an excellent three days in Glasgow where the Nelevator was well received and we were made very welcome. It was a long way to travel, but well worth it to give our Scottish supporters a chance to see the Nelevator in the flesh.
Limited in Name but Not in Features
The response to the Nelevator has been especially gratifying and has certainly exceeded our expectations. With the fantastic response and full order books, we decided that Nelevation deserved a more professional organisational structure to take her to greater things and to this aim we have incorporated Nelevation, so we are now officially Nelevation Limited.
Ramping Up for Production
We have made amazing progress in the short time since releasing the Nelevator in August and the current design now shares no components with the original prototype.
Nelevator remote control handset mouldingsDuring the productionisation of the Nelevator we have introduced a whole raft of design changes which not only make the Nelevator easier to produce, but will also help to improve performance, robustness, safety and future-proof the design for upgrades.
Some of these design changes include:
New quieter, more powerful motors
Larger optical encoder discs with more slots for greater resolution and accuracy
New circuit board with noise suppression and signal edge optimisation for improved accuracy and repeatability
Stall detection and bounce-back algorithms in case of portal blockage for safety
Addition of a serial port on the main PCB to allow for remote computer control
Revised worm wheel gear ratios
Addition of drive bar stabilisers to eliminate harmonic vibration on the drive shafts between the end plates
A new track clip design to clamp the track down and prevent sleepers being bent up, reducing track alignment issues
A new steel reinforced, glass filled Nylon stacker end moulding to eliminate the risk of the extrusions becoming displaced over time
New chassis design that improves stiffness and reduces weight
New motor mounting bracket and bearing block to improve alignment tolerances and reduce operational friction
All of this and yet to the untrained eye the Nelevator will look exactly the same.
We are currently also in the process of undergoing EMC (Electromagnetic Compatibility) testing in order to meet our European obligations before we are allowed to ship product with the obligatory CE conformity mark.
When will Shipping Commence?
So, as you can see we've been very busy getting the Nelevator ready to ship as soon as possible, and in this respect we thank you ever so much for your continued patience.
The question on everyone's mind is I'm sure, when will it ship?
Our current estimates are for initial units to start shipping in May. With over 100 orders in our order book however, we obviously won't be able to satisfy all orders simultaneously. A little closer to the time we hope to be able to advise of more accurate shipping dates for each individual order.
Thank you once again for your interest in the Nelevator and we look forward to bringing you more updates in the near future as we continue to work at a feverish pace getting things ready for production.
Regards,
Allen Pearson
Nelevation Limited
Pleased to report that my Nelevator arrived a couple of weeks back and works exactly as expected. I have part loaded it and at last I have some empty boxes and can admire my stock. I can use it as a through road or to feed my Heritage Line.Just waiting for the perspex front and rear covers which are expected this week. A lot of photographs on my Layout thread but one here showing part of it.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/41/2383-290616171654.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=41520)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/41/2383-290616171736.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=41521)
Hello there,
Wow, that does look good. It's quite a visual feature in itself, and a great way to store trains.
What length is it?
cheers
Ben A.
That is the medium size one and does display the stock nicely, but more importantly almost instant access to running them, just the time it takes to switch levels.
Quite taken by this, and someone offered to get me one for Christmas, but I wonder if I should go for the largest version?
It's only going to go on the back of Old Elm Common, but if I make the baseboards up to it, modular, I can use it for other layouts running max length trains.
Could, as I run DCC, run 2 trains on each track (the layouts not long), while getting a third ready to depart. By doing this constant;y, the speed of the device won't make 2 much of a problem as the operator will always be 2 trains ahead, so viewers won't get bored.
I would see the Nelevator asversatile and easy to swap between different layouts simply by creating a modular support and incorporating it into layout board, in fact I could easily do that with Geominster.
Is there an update as to when pre orders will be ready for shipping?
Quote from: cutting42 on July 13, 2016, 02:02:09 AM
Is there an update as to when pre orders will be ready for shipping?
Go to www.nelevation.co.uk (http://www.nelevation.co.uk) and ask or the facebook page
Quote from: georgehgv on July 13, 2016, 10:37:49 PM
Quote from: cutting42 on July 13, 2016, 02:02:09 AM
Is there an update as to when pre orders will be ready for shipping?
Go to www.nelevation.co.uk (http://www.nelevation.co.uk) and ask or the facebook page
May I correct the website:
Go to www.http://www.nelevation.com/ (http://www.nelevation.com/)
HTH
Dave G
Quote from: daveg on July 14, 2016, 06:09:13 AM
Quote from: georgehgv on July 13, 2016, 10:37:49 PM
Quote from: cutting42 on July 13, 2016, 02:02:09 AM
Is there an update as to when pre orders will be ready for shipping?
Go to www.nelevation.co.uk (http://www.nelevation.co.uk) and ask or the facebook page
May I correct the website:
Go to www.http://www.nelevation.com/ (http://www.nelevation.com/)
HTH
Dave G
Ooops thanks Dave
For anyone who is interested I received this a few days ago
Nelevator Production Update – July 2016
It's been three months since you last heard from us in April, and we certainly haven't been resting on our laurels in the interim, but we thought it was about time to give you an update on our progress with the Nelevator.
While things have taken longer to achieve than we would ideally have liked (as these things often do unfortunately), we are happy to say that the first few Nelevator units have now been shipped to customers and we are very close to achieving full production status; more to follow later in the e-mail.
Forthcoming Shows
Nelevator was first shown to the public last September in its prototype form at the International N-Gauge Show near Coventry. Since then we've come along way, with full production due to start imminently plus we now also have a full working prototype of the OO-Gauge version and are gearing up for its production also.
If you haven't seen the Nelevator and want to see it in the flesh, here's the list of shows that we intend to visit this forthcoming season:
The International N-Gauge Show: 10 – 11 September 2016, Leamington Spa
The National Festival of Railway Modelling: 15 – 16 October 2016, Peterborough
Warley National Model Railway Exhibition: 26 – 27 November 2016, Birmingham
Model Rail Scotland: 24 – 26 February 2017, Glasgow
The London Festival of Railway Modelling: 25 – 26 March 2017, London
Full Production due in August
We have been assembling sub-assemblies for the Nelevator for a little while and indeed the first two units have now been shipped to customers using some pre-production parts.
We have amassed a large number of production parts in stock and have just received, programmed and tested the first batch of 50 electronic control circuits and remote control handsets.
The critical path for full production to commence is the end stacker plates, for which we are still awaiting the first batch of mouldings from the moulding house. These are expected to be arriving soon.
When will Shipping Commence?
So, as you can see we've remained very busy getting the Nelevator ready to ship as soon as possible, and in this respect we thank you very much for your continued patience.
The question on everyone's mind is undoubtedly, when will it ship?
The current estimate for the production run to fully kick in to action is mid-August.
With over 130 orders in our order book however, we obviously won't be able to satisfy all orders simultaneously. Once we have a few more Nelevators out of the door we should have a much better idea of how quick we can manufacture them and should then be able to give you a more accurate prediction of anticipated delivery date.
Additionally, to be fair to everyone we will be shipping units in the order we received the orders.
Thank you once again for your interest in the Nelevator and we look forward to bringing you more updates in the near future.
The one I ordered has been performing as expected, it is reliable and I was fortunate to get an order in right at the start hence mine is with me. I waited for nine months and I must admit whilst I was impatient towards the end the wait was worthwhile. Now I can leave my stock safely enclosed whilst I continue building my layout and doing scenery etc but still able to play trains.
It would appear that those who have ordered will be seeing them before much longer. Be amazed.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/2383-240716092531.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=42257)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/2383-240716092618.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=42258)
Hi Guys,
Having had your Nelevator for some time and gained experience perhaps you could give me some advice. I am considering ordering an Elevator to use as a substitute for a fiddle yard.
What I want to do is include the tracks through the Nelevator as part of the running rails of my layout. My question is would this be feasible, would the trains get a smooth transition through the Nelevator or could I expect problems like poor running and derailments.
What do you think?
Thanks
Quote from: Kiwi40 on May 11, 2017, 06:59:48 AM
Hi Guys,
Having had your Nelevator for some time and gained experience perhaps you could give me some advice. I am considering ordering an Elevator to use as a substitute for a fiddle yard.
What I want to do is include the tracks through the Nelevator as part of the running rails of my layout. My question is would this be feasible, would the trains get a smooth transition through the Nelevator or could I expect problems like poor running and derailments.
What do you think?
Thanks
Nelevator works OK as a through line, it appears not to lose any power and the main difference when running through it is the quietness. With the covers on it the sound is deadened so it does go quiet. If possible I would suggest if you have room to provide a couple of tracks that also go past it so you have the option to move levels whilst running trains and therefore not be totally reliant on an empty through track in Nelevator to keep stock moving.
Thanks for the reply. Yes I was wondering about the complications of making sure there was a clear line through the Nelevator
i'll try to move things around to make space for some by-pass lines.
Thanks again
Quote from: Kiwi40 on May 11, 2017, 10:16:22 AM
Thanks for the reply. Yes I was wondering about the complications of making sure there was a clear line through the Nelevator
i'll try to move things around to make space for some by-pass lines.
Thanks again
I am going to change mine slightly so that Nelevator sits back against the wall and change the current tracks through it to run in front of it and put points and crossovers toaccess it, therefore it can be used to its advantage purely as storage and display.
Moving things around on mine wont be so hard as I am still at the planning stage using Empire Express layout planning software. So it's just a question of re-arranging the track plan :-)
I'm very glad I asked the forum members for their thoughts.
@georgehgv (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2383)
It looks fantastic, thanks for posting pics. Any chance of a video clip? Some of us are not destined to witness such mechanical marvels due to space restrictions so a video clip would be cracking.
:wave:
While we're waiting to see the Nelevator as installed on George's layout, this may be of interest:
https://youtu.be/kAPD5bakW5o
Dave G
Quote from: georgehgv on July 24, 2016, 09:26:26 AM
The one I ordered has been performing as expected, it is reliable and I was fortunate to get an order in right at the start hence mine is with me. I waited for nine months and I must admit whilst I was impatient towards the end the wait was worthwhile. Now I can leave my stock safely enclosed whilst I continue building my layout and doing scenery etc but still able to play trains.
It would appear that those who have ordered will be seeing them before much longer. Be amazed.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/2383-240716092531.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=42257)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/2383-240716092618.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=42258)
Hi George,
Is it the longest version that you have?
If so, can you advise what the actual internal track length is?
Many thanksIt's okay, found the max train length on the website.
Thanks.
All the info is here
http://www.nelevation.com/ (http://www.nelevation.com/)
I've seen all the company bumph, just thought it'd be nice to see one actually on someone's personal layout.
:)
Quote from: emjaybee on May 12, 2017, 11:40:24 AM
I've seen all the company bumph, just thought it'd be nice to see one actually on someone's personal layout.
:)
It is on my layout thread
Aha! Found it. Nice!
Have shown the piccies to the Domestic Authority as a suggestion for when I get my train room back (it was taken over as a music studio by my lad!). In principle yes, but not just yet!
Explain to the D.A. that, owing to Brexit, Donald Trump, the NHS being hacked etc etc the price will be going up by 50% in 30 days time and it's vital you get your order in now to save money ;)
Quote from: newportnobby on May 12, 2017, 08:26:32 PM
Explain to the D.A. that, owing to Brexit, Donald Trump, the NHS being hacked etc etc the price will be going up by 50% in 30 days time and it's vital you get your order in now to save money ;)
Aaaaaaaaand....
.....duck !!!
:-X
Hello all,
Anyone heading to the National Fetival of Railway Modelling at the East of England showground at Peterborough may spot a pair of Revolution Trains Pendolinos running on the Nelevation display stand.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/94-141017111422-566772264.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/94-141017111422-56677926.jpeg)
Revolution would like to thank Allen and the Nelevation team for giving the Pendos a run out!
Cheers
Ben A.
Want to see the Pendolino I ordered running through my Nelevator soonish please.