A little help with loco and coach choices please.

[Phoenix]

Hi all,

Sorry, but not much work has been done on "Windmill Hill" as the flu bug has bitten again      and I have not really felt like doing anything much.

However it has given me time to think about my next projects 

Next up I will be making another case layout with a Quayside / Harbour theme, and as I mentioned in an earlier thread about the Dapol Flying Scotsman, while building that, I will be starting to accumulate locos and coaches for a larger layout.

Thank you for your help, and as a result, rather than go for a mix of Steam and diesel, I have decided to stick to steam only, and base the area vaguely west, as that is where I live, and I do like chocolate and cream coaches. 

This area and era will dictate the type of industry / agriculture, and so the type of goods wagons, but I am not worried about that at the moment.

I realise that I cannot run all sorts of liveries of locos together, but I would like to run different types of coaches, so suppose I set the time as 1956 - 1957 ish, could I run.... for example ..... these trains together ?

I got the info regarding the eras from the descriptions from Hattons.

1.
"Tiverton Castle" in BR green early crest with BR crimson and cream coaches

http://www.hattons.co.uk/61121/Graham_Farish_372_031_Class_4073_Castle_4_6_0_5041_Tiverton_Castle_in_BR_green_with_early_emblem/StockDetail.aspx

http://www.hattons.co.uk/204331/Dapol_2P_000_133_Collett_second_corridor_W1083_in_BR_crimson_and_cream/StockDetail.aspx

2.
ivatt 2MT in BR black late crest with BR maroon coaches

http://www.hattons.co.uk/182037/Graham_Farish_372_628_Class_2MT_Ivatt_2_6_0_46443_in_BR_lined_black_with_late_crest/StockDetail.aspx

http://www.hattons.co.uk/107743/Graham_Farish_374_053G_BR_Mk1_SK_Second_Corridor_E24945_in_BR_Maroon/StockDetail.aspx

3.
Jinty in BR black late crest, with perhaps just 2 chocolate and cream coaches on a branch line.

http://www.hattons.co.uk/82806/Graham_Farish_372_212A_Class_3F_Jinty_0_6_0T_47500_in_BR_black_with_late_crest/StockDetail.aspx

http://www.hattons.co.uk/344068/Graham_Farish_374_014_PO_Mk1_SO_second_open_in_chocolate_cream_Pre_owned_Like_new/StockDetail.aspx

I realise that I should be able to run what I want, and would like to be fairly accurate, but surely there must be an overlap when early and late crest ran together 

Thanks in advance, and I will get back to finishing "Windmill hill " soon 

All best wishes
Kevin

   

[javlinfaw7]

It would be unusual for a Jinty(ex LMS) to be pulling chocolate and cream(Western region) coaches. I don't think that the Hattons has described the item on the page attached either , http://www.hattons.co.uk/344068/Graham_Farish_374_014_PO_Mk1_SO_second_open_in_chocolate_cream_Pre_owned_Like_new/StockDetail.aspx
It appears to be some type of suburban brake in Great Western livery

[Phoenix]

Thank you for that reply.

I am finding it a bit of a puzzle trying to make sense of it all so do appreciate any help. 

The jinty and the coach were both described as BR era 5 so I assumed they would go together 

If I got the Jinty and in BR black would I be better using it for goods wagons then ?

Also, am I OK with having BR early and late crest running alongside each other ?

Once again many thanks for your help 

All best wishes
Kevin

[Bealman]

Jintys were most usually found on freight and shunting duties although could also be seen with surburban passenger stock.

[Phoenix]

 

Fab ...... I have heard good things about the Jinty, and it seems an ideal loco to have on a not too huge layout.

I will pre order one to use as you suggest for freight and shunting 

Many thanks

PS Hope you are a bit warmer than we are !

Cheers

[javlinfaw7]

If you wish to go passenger maroon suburban stock would fit better , just a question of what part of the country they come from.

[Bealman]

Yes, the Jinty has always been a favourite loco of mine ever since I was a kid! Stangely enough, I don't have one in my stud, but the latest version from Farish looks superb. Heaps of detail and character.

I have an old Farish GP tank purchased around about 1988 which was the nearest thing you could get to a Jinty at that time!

Hope you are not too cold over there.... great railway modelling weather, methinks!

Yes we are a bit warmer here, although today it is a very pleasant 21 degrees - so much nicer than the awful 40+ we usually get at this time of year! 

[Phoenix]

Will deffo get one then..... Any thoughts on either of these ?

http://www.hattons.co.uk/58868/Dapol_2S_010_002_Class_49xx_4_6_0_4914_Cranmore_Hall_in_BR_lined_green_with_late_crest/StockDetail.aspx

http://www.hattons.co.uk/61121/Graham_Farish_372_031_Class_4073_Castle_4_6_0_5041_Tiverton_Castle_in_BR_green_with_early_emblem/StockDetail.aspx

The area I am looking at is vaguely west

Flippin' freezing here ..... Glad I model in a warm spare room, I don't envy the guys I sheds at all !

All kind regards
Kevin

[Stuart Down Under]

Yes, cold in Sydney today too - only around 25C, but it is autumn, I suppose. 

During early crest era (up to 1956), basically all corridor coaches were blood and custard, while non-corridor stock was crimson. From 1956, the revised colour schemes came into effect, but the previous colours tended to linger. I model 1960, and feel I can have 10-15% blood and custard. From 1956 "out west" all coaches were repainted in maroon. The only exceptions were on the Southern region, where they reverted to green coaches, and the Western region who chose to re-introduce chocolate and cream, but only on principal expresses. Most trains were maroon. Thus two problems with the Jinty with choc & cream; it isn't a western region loco (nor is the Ivatt), and even if it was, a local train would have maroon coaches, or possibly some crimson non-corridor stock.  Farish non-corridors are available in both maroon and crimson. The colours are quite similar, but clearly very different when posed next to each other. The Ivatt would be more suitable for a local passenger train. Hope that helps.

Kind regards, Stuart

[Bingley Hall]

Fab ...... I have heard good things about the Jinty, and it seems an ideal loco to have on a not too huge layout.

I will pre order one to use as you suggest for freight and shunting 

Many thanks

PS Hope you are a bit warmer than we are !

Cheers

As has already been hinted at, the Jinty is not something you would find out 'west'. It really depends how far out 'west' you are thinking, but a Jinty would not be my first choice as it is not generally a loco associated with the west except on the Somerset and Dorset railway.

You would be much better off getting an 0-6-0PT Pannier tank which was widely distributed across the Western Region and worked both local passenger services and freight. Both Farish and Dapol produce variants of the type.

You might have to look around a bit to get a late crest one at the moment though - this one is DCC http://www.hattons.co.uk/197008/Dapol_2S_007_017D_Class_57xx_Pannier_0_6_0PT_6760_in_BR_black_with_early_crest_and_later_cab_DCC_/StockDetail.aspx

[longbow]

Actually the Ivatt 2MT would have been an even rarer sight than a Jinty in the SW.

The Hall is a good choice but another mixed traffic loco such as a Grange or Manor would be more versatile than a Castle.

As an additional factor, Mk1 coaches progressively replaced pre-grouping stock after nationalisation. By the mid-late 50s the named expresses would be almost exclusively Mk1s whilst lesser formations could still be partly or mostly old stock (eg Collett or Hawksworths). 

[Bealman]

Hey Kevin.... see what a wealth of information we have here at the Antipodes! 

[NeMo]

The Hall is a good choice but another mixed traffic loco such as a Grange or Manor would be more versatile than a Castle.

Another (cautious) vote for something like a Manor over the Hall. Remember, the Hall was essentially the GWR template for the LMS Black 5, and in the same way that the Black 5 was a mainline rather than branchline engine, the Hall wouldn't be seen particularly often on branchlines. Of course if you're modelling a mainline station or at least a secondary line, the Hall would be fine, and it would be handling the same sort of things as the Black 5, namely moderately heavy freight trains and second-tier expresses passenger trains, as well as parcels traffic, milk trains, and so on.

What it wouldn't be doing is tootling down a single track line towards a seaside town like Minehead, whereas that's exactly the sort of thing a Manor would do! Indeed, last summer I sent some time talking with an engineer at the West Somerset and he was commenting on how useful the Manors are to them, handling long trains well without hammering the track or requiring especially careful driving. They've got 3 of the beasts, albeit not all in working order at the moment.

My 'cautiousness' about recommending the Manor is that while the Dapol model is excellent in many ways, with a good level of detailing, it does have the somewhat noisy arrangement of the motor in the tender with a cardan shaft through the cab driving the wheels under the loco. Frankly, while perfectly useable, this isn't as nice as the system Farish use with the motor in the loco itself.

Depending on which part of the West Country you're planning on, ex-LMS, ex-SR, and ex-GWR might all be appropriate. Some BR standards did work that part of the country too, perhaps most famously the 9Fs that saw a good deal of use on the S&DJR for example. Dapol do a nice model of the 9F, though again, it does use the somewhat noisy tender drive. The Farish Standard Class 3MT was another important class for the Western Region during the 50s and 60s.

Jintys were common on the S&DJR but nowhere else in the West Country, and likewise some of the ex-MR and ex-LMS 0-6-0 tender engines including the 4F beautifully modelled by Farish. I don't know much about the 'withered arm' of the Southern Region in Dorset, Devon and Cornwall, but certainly things like the Dapol M7 and potentially the upcoming (?) Dapol Battle-of-Britain might be used without problems.

As an additional factor, Mk1 coaches progressively replaced pre-grouping stock after nationalisation. By the mid-late 50s the named expresses would be almost exclusively Mk1s whilst lesser formations could still be partly or mostly old stock (eg Collett or Hawksworths).

Absolutely right, although the Collett coaches were still used on secondary and branchlines for things like commuter trains and local passenger trains, well into the green diesel era. So if you were modelling, say, around 1958, with the diesels sans yellow warning panel, sticking three or four maroon Collett coaches would not be wrong. The Collett full brake or composite brake would be equally useful on a milk train or parcels train.

Cheers, NeMo

[Newportnobby]

Kevin,
If you want to be super picky about your coaches such that they have 'W' prefix running numbers I suggest you use the attached Farish list to identify which Farish reference you need to be shopping for.
Dapol do a very nice maroon 'B' set pair of coaches which would look good behind a pannier tank or 2-6-2 tank
I agree a Jinty is not really the thing for the WR and that one or more panniers would be better.

[Train Waiting]

Next up I will be making another case layout with a Quayside / Harbour theme, and as I mentioned in an earlier thread about the Dapol Flying Scotsman, while building that, I will be starting to accumulate locos and coaches for a larger layout.

Thank you for your help, and as a result, rather than go for a mix of Steam and diesel, I have decided to stick to steam only, and base the area vaguely west, as that is where I live, and I do like chocolate and cream coaches. 

This area and era will dictate the type of industry / agriculture, and so the type of goods wagons, but I am not worried about that at the moment.

I realise that I cannot run all sorts of liveries of locos together, but I would like to run different types of coaches, so suppose I set the time as 1956 - 1957 ish, could I run.... for example ..... these trains together ?

Hello Kevin

Windmill Hill is a marvellous layout and I look forward to your next project.  If we take the BR(W) chocolate and cream carriages that were used for the principal expresses as the first critical point and your desire to have a wider range of available steam locomotives as the second, whilst sticking to some kind of quayside/harbour then I have an idea...

I know that you are in Dorset.  Can you accept Somerset as 'vaguely west'?

If so how about a layout based on Highbridge or Bridgwater?  The ex-GWR main line crossed S&D branch lines at both places (on the level at Highbridge).  The S&D gives potential for Derby locomotives like the '3F' 0-6-0T and '3F' and '4F' 0-6-0 tender engines.  'Collett Goods' 0-6-0s were used on the Highbridge branch in later years as well.  It looks like the trade could be very helpful!

If you have a quick look on the internet you'll find some splendid old photographs of Highbridge and Bridgwater docks/harbour/wharf/quay.

If this idea is of interest, there is a wonderful film of the Highbridge branch with Sir John Betjeman.  Probably about 1964 or thereabouts.  I'll find the reference if you want.

With all best wishes.

John