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Author Topic: Detail versus performance  (Read 415 times)

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Online Old Crow

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Detail versus performance
« on: November 21, 2017, 01:08:52 am »
I've been thinking of buying one of the new superdetailed Farish locos - possibly the 2MT or 4F but I've already made expensive mistakes through inexperience and I've seen videos questioning their haulage capacity. They do seem to be very light in weight. Also I've seen servicing instructions depicting an exploded view and I'm quite astonished at the number of small gears in the drive train; surely there is an adage that the more complicated you make something, the more there is to go wrong?
So, in the quest for ultimate realism (and they are good in that respect) you have core-less (and complicated) motors and a complex drive train, coupled with a light-weight plastic body.
I can see that those of you who can emulate wonderful standards of realism will want the impressive detail but I'm not sure that's for me. I'm happy enough with dc and what I want is reliability and good haulage capacity. I have a few Poole and Early Chinese Poole-spec locos; they have weighty metal bodies, a simple old-style motor and the drive train is one metal worm on to one metal cog. With a little servicing, they run extremely well and can really pull though some may be decades old! Will the new complex lightweight versions have the same reliability?
I'd be interested in members' opinions of the performance of the new stuff.


Offline railsquid

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 04:06:43 am »
If you seach the forum you can find many previous threads covering the same ground ;)

Personally I have a few of the modern Farish and Dapol kettles, they look very nice and mostly haulage is OK for my purposes, but they're also very delicate so I only get them out on special occasions. For "everyday" use I'm perfectly happy with older stock.
"Eigatani Tetsudo" - Japanese and other trains (planning), featuring:

Offline MalcolmAL

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 04:32:43 am »
I've been thinking of buying one of the new superdetailed Farish locos - possibly the 2MT or 4F
Will the new complex lightweight versions have the same reliability?
I'd be interested in members' opinions of the performance of the new stuff.
Maybe model numbers Farish ref may be of help here ? there are so many variants , , ,
I have two 4F from recent Seaside Excursion sets and they are adequate to that task, ie. two coaches,  no complaint to B-F. Sold as described. However, when commenting here-abouts that they cant pull a skin off a rice pud compared to other Farish loco offerings one is taken to task ! that they- the other owners - have no problems
So one wonders if there are variations betwixt production runs ?

pays-yer-money etc., at least with distance selling these days one has recourse.

In my case 2 4F sets had to be returned to the local vendor and they were replaced, after some mutterings about any more would need returning under warranty/repair :(

We now buy online

« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 04:34:45 am by MalcolmAL »

Offline PLD

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 07:58:25 am »
As RailSquid says, a subject done many times.

The reality is performance/reliability and detail are not mutually exclusive - you can have both.

What does need addressing is users expectations.
If you run the prototype at 100 MPH around a 100 ft Radius curve (the equivalent of 9in Settrack) it WILL derail.
Any Prototype is not going to climb a 1 in 10 grade without assistance why do we expect the model to do so???
A Prototype 4F would only manage 6-7 Bogie coaches my recent Farish models will on the flat.


P.S. is the OP the same Old Crow who from another thread is pretty much the only modeller ever to have trouble with  a Union Mills loco - the least detailed models currently available - thereby immediately disproving his own argument that there is a trade-off between performance/reliability and detail...  :hmmm:

Online Bob Tidbury

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 09:30:36 am »
I think its a bit of luck as to the haulage capabilities of locos .a lot of people say that the Dapol 14xx doesnt pull more than two or three coaches I have one that can handle six ,seven with a bit of wheel slip at first .
In real life I think that the most they actually managed was four with the loco sandwiched between .
I feel sorry for Old Crow who appears to have a problem with his Union Mills loco as someone allready said they will pull a house down but of course do lack the fine detail of the latest offerings from the big two but can be detailed by some of our members into very nice models.
Im sure Colin Heard will be able to sort out the problem for old Crow and then he will see what we say about Union Mills is true.
Its true what they say one bad report does more harm than dozens of good reports .
Bob Tidbury

Offline Bealman

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 09:35:39 am »
Agree.  :thumbsup:
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 09:54:19 am »
and the drive train is one metal worm on to one metal cog.

Which dates those to around 1981.

Removing the rose tinted spectacles, the all brass Poole early Farish was a very bad engineering choice (which is why Farish changed it to brass on plastic in 1984, later black plastic giving the split gear epidemic) as the worm will get heavily worn by the brass spur gear - this is a very common failure mode of the early models. Some can then start to bind up and burn out the motor.

Therefore, there are problems with any generation of mechanism, so I think as PLD also alluded to, generalisations are dangerous.

New tool models generally run extremely well, and the most recent motor technology (coreless) is on a different level. Sure, you get bad runners, but that's the same throughout the ages - many of the bad/failing/dead original Poole Farish will have been weeded out of all those out there, so valid comparisons are difficult.

Older models probably are more robust to rough handling, but I'd say "why are you handling these expensive investments so roughly??!" to those who do!!

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Bob Tidbury

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 10:18:17 am »
It really is a shame Bachman/Farish dont use the white nylon looking gears anymore Ive never heard of any of  the gears splitting on those .Why did they stop.useing them they were so quiet and smooth .
Bob Tidbury

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 10:20:31 am »
It really is a shame Bachman/Farish dont use the white nylon looking gears anymore Ive never heard of any of  the gears splitting on those .Why did they stop.useing them they were so quiet and smooth .

They do. My new tool class 40 has white gearing, as have some of the new tool class 20s, 08s and 3MT tanks.

I think they were originally dropped due to cost.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 10:20:58 am »
P.s. I've seen the odd white gear split. It's far less common though.
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Bealman

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 10:22:51 am »
Interesting, cos the nylon ones were heaps better in my opinion.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 10:51:40 am by Bealman »
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Online Old Crow

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 11:02:28 am »
Thanks for the replies guys, as a newbie, I don't have the experience and want to avoid more costly mistakes. I guess "natural selection" is in evidence here - good locos of various marques/eras, survive and there are occasional duff ones amongst present production. I'm very happy with my older Duchess and 2-6-4 tanks that will pull seven coaches easily in all speed ranges in spite of their vintage and the Jinty tank is no slouch either.

Online silly moo

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 11:08:01 am »
I agree with what Alan and PLD have said. Over the years I have had everything from the old Poole Farish locos with brass gears to the latest Farish offerings. The locos with brass gears are noisy, the Poole versions with plastic gears are prone to split gears sometimes years after purchase as I have found out recently with some of my survivors.

The new offerings are very good indeed if handled carefully and run smoothly and almost silently. I can't really comment on prototypical loads as I have a small layout. I prefer Farish to Dapol as I think they are generally better made. You can get a dud with any make and if it is new it needs to be returned straight away.

Buying second hand has its pitfalls as you never know what the previous owner has been up to, it might be on sale because it is a bad runner. Any second hand Poole locos could have been badly treated and run into the ground simply due to their age.

Minitrix locos are worth investigating if you aren't too concerned about prototypical appearance as they are British bodies on German chassis. They are good quality though and mine have lasted well. Some people have had problems with small plastic parts of the running gear breaking. Most of them are quite tolerant of tight radius curves.

I'm now going to go off track - literally. The best loco in the world will not run well on poorly laid track so it pays dividends to make sure your track work is meticulous. Even brand new locos can have out of gauge wheels so a back to back gauge is an essential tool.

Any purchase could end up being a dud so 'you pays your money and takes your chances' but if you buy from a reputable source you can return any duds.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:57:57 pm by silly moo, Reason: Spelling »

Offline newportnobby

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Re: Detail versus performance
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 03:52:18 pm »
It also pays to remember Dapol and Farish locos are hand assembled from a huge amount of small parts so it's highly unlikely any two locos will be the same. That, and the transient nature of the Chinese workforce (especially around Chinese New Year), would no doubt result in a 'Friday afternoon/Monday morning' jobbie escaping into our world at times.

 

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