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Author Topic: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout  (Read 9129 times)

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Offline MrDobilina

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GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« on: August 14, 2016, 06:49:34 pm »
Good evening everybody!
Hopefully your weekend has been great and you've had some time to -play with- operate some trains! :beers:

This is my first construction topic and is based off the post I made in layout planning.

I have some confusion at the moment with where I need insulating joins and where I need connectors. This is my first layout with points so I need some advice please!

It's going to be dc for now so I'll need to isolate certain areas so that I only have one engine moving at a time - but could have 3 or 4 present.

Sorry for the poor pictures!











I will add a diagram later with where I've put isolating connections so far.

edit, connections below. green is conductive, red is insulated. I have no idea if this is correct!

« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 07:48:40 pm by MrDobilina »

Offline TylerB

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2016, 08:40:01 pm »
Just a suggestion, but to help people posting replies to this, it might be worth uploading another diagram, with each point assigned a letter, i.e the 3 way is point 'A; the next point along is point 'B' etc.

It's easier working out what point people are referring to when they say 'point F' rather than 'the left hand point next to the two right hand points at the junction of....'  :confused1:

Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2016, 09:33:49 pm »
Just a suggestion, but to help people posting replies to this, it might be worth uploading another diagram, with each point assigned a letter, i.e the 3 way is point 'A; the next point along is point 'B' etc.

It's easier working out what point people are referring to when they say 'point F' rather than 'the left hand point next to the two right hand points at the junction of....'  :confused1:

As requested




EDIT

I believe I have spotted a mistake between B and C should be isolated completely but I've put in a conductive and an insul
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:49:43 am by MrDobilina »

Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 12:31:36 pm »
Hey guys, :wave: trying to figure out this wiring.

Is this roughly right? The lines between track are link wires to keep power to all tracks when needed, is that a right thing to do? or should each line go to a switch and then the central bus?  I think the link between the top track and the other platform is wrong and the blue should just run back to the power from the fiddle yard entrance rather than into the other one, which I now realise is powered separately.

Am I right in thinking B and C should be slaved to each other (one moves the other must too) as well as E and F, to prevent derailment/shortcircuiting?




Here are some mock ups of how the electrical flow should work to correctly move a train about

Getting from the traverser to siding D



Getting from traverser to point F (pulling into station)



Using the run around to get back to the traverser

« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:35:38 pm by MrDobilina »

Offline newportnobby

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2016, 12:48:04 pm »
For DC I'd keep it simple and so reckon you need 3 feeds and 3 pairs of IRJs (insulated rail joiners)
In this example the feeds are shown as a green 'F' and the IRJs as a red line.
Feeds at the toe of points A, C/D and F
Twin rail break IRJs at the middle rail after point A, between points B/C and between points E/F


Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 12:53:12 pm »
For DC I'd keep it simple and so reckon you need 3 feeds and 3 pairs of IRJs (insulated rail joiners)
In this example the feeds are shown as a green 'F' and the IRJs as a red line.
Feeds at the toe of points A, C/D and F
Twin rail break IRJs at the middle rail after point A, between points B/C and between points E/F




Awesome thanks!
Silly question, but how do you get power to the headshunts/sidings of C, E, D and G?

Edit: I think the answer is that I change some of the insulators that I have already to conductive so that the power can flow through the point
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:54:37 pm by MrDobilina »

Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 02:41:43 pm »
I am still a little confused I think.

In this example, I've followed @newportnobby s idea and have insulated joins just on the breaks as instructed, with the feeds 1, 2 and 3 in the positions suggested.

My query here is this:

If I try to get from the traverser, past feed 1 through point A to point D, wont  the sidings at C and G all have double negative power and at E have double positive?



or does this make more sense:



where black is the switch for each electro frog. This is using jumpers which I think makes more sense.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 03:27:57 pm by MrDobilina »

Offline newportnobby

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 03:35:29 pm »

My query here is this:

If I try to get from the traverser, past feed 1 through point A to point D, wont  the sidings at C and G all have double negative power and at E have double positive?


Because you have a a feed at the toe of point A and also at the toes of points C and D, the latter feed will provide power to the sidings. Siding E (assuming it's the one from the point E can be isolated by point B.
Not entirely sure I understand your question :confused2:

Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2016, 03:53:31 pm »

My query here is this:

If I try to get from the traverser, past feed 1 through point A to point D, wont  the sidings at C and G all have double negative power and at E have double positive?



Because you have a a feed at the toe of point A and also at the toes of points C and D, the latter feed will provide power to the sidings. Siding E (assuming it's the one from the point E can be isolated by point B.
Not entirely sure I understand your question :confused2:

Sorry @newportnobby Im really not used to thinking in electronics!

My question is this. If I try to get from A - the siding at D, wont the rails then be in the following configuration, meaning that there are issues on several rails?


Offline Yet_Another

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 04:18:30 pm »
As long as you have the track sections isolated properly, there's nothing wrong with having both rails at the same polarity. This just means that they're both at the same voltage, so no current flows, and trains don't move. AFAIK it's still perfectly normal for power switching points to do this (I say this because it's about 30 years since I last had to think about these things, and haven't got that far with mine yet).
Tony

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Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 04:34:17 pm »
As long as you have the track sections isolated properly, there's nothing wrong with having both rails at the same polarity. This just means that they're both at the same voltage, so no current flows, and trains don't move. AFAIK it's still perfectly normal for power switching points to do this (I say this because it's about 30 years since I last had to think about these things, and haven't got that far with mine yet).


The thing I dont get is that in articles like this:
http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions/dcc_concepts/Wiring-Pointwork-and-Special-Track-Conditions-For-DC-or-DCC-2014.pdf

and the peco how to wire booklet it says that all frogs should be isolated, meaning that id need some kind of wire connected to the either side of the point.

Offline Yet_Another

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 05:11:23 pm »
You need to be careful when reading up about DCC and N gauge. The document you link to is for OO/HO points, which are constructed differently from N gauge ones.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong in this next bit)

The moving part of Peco N gauge points switches the power for the rails in the V part of the point (the frog). In electrofrog points, this is electrically one unit, so is either connected to the inner or outer rail at the toe of the point, and thus to prevent potential short circuits both of the ends are joined with isolators. However, for a siding with no other power feed, you don't need the isolator and can use a normal fishplate, and it will behave as described, with the rail connected to the V changing polarity as the point is changed. This is fine. If you've got any sort of power feed on that rail in the siding, though, you'll need to use an isolating joiner, to avoid a short circuit.

I'm less sure about insulfrog points. In these, there is a small bit of plastic at the point of the V which keeps each side of the V electrically isolated. I think that these rails are also switched in the same way, but are a bit more forgiving electrically (you don't get an immediate short, because it's two separate bits of metal), so the isolating joiners are not as necessary, but I believe it's still recommended practice to treat them the same as electrofrog points.

The talk of cutting rails to make them DCC compatible is not necessary for Peco N gauge points.

Hope this helps & doesn't confuse further!
Tony

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Offline newportnobby

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 06:12:07 pm »

My question is this. If I try to get from A - the siding at D, wont the rails then be in the following configuration, meaning that there are issues on several rails?



Provided you attach the feed and return wires to the same sides of the tracks you won't have any issues.
It's exactly the way I would wire it up and I know it would work without doing anything horrible like cutting the points. There are no modifications necessary.
I have based my information on using a double track controller with the feeds fed via switches (either Single Pole Double Throw or Double Pole Double Throw - whichever you have to hand/are easiest to source)
These switches are not absolutely necessary but just give extra options for playing :)
For instance, you could do some shunting in sidings from points C and D whilst a train arrives/departs from the station.

Offline Mito

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2016, 06:27:40 pm »
This the bible for many people, me included.http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/index.html
You know you're getting older when your mind makes commitments your body can't meet.

Offline MrDobilina

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Re: GWR themed terminus and shunt layout
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2016, 06:56:34 pm »
Thanks guys, there was one KEY piece of information that I was missing and that was - n gauge electrofrog points switch the power when the point is being switched.

Just been playing with this in the garage and had some fun :D

Can you run more than one feed from one controller or how do you run the feeds to each area?

I only have the basic bachman back and forth controller which comes with clip on connectors.

 

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