Are electrofrog points really necessary for slow running?

poliss · January 02, 2011, 03:20:35 PM

I've often read that to ensure that your short wheelbase locos don't stall over points that you should use electrofrogs. Is this really true or is it that a) the loco wheels aren't level, or b) the plastic frogs aren't at the same height as the metal rail? In either case, as one wheel goes over the plastic frog, the second wheel is lifted off the track causing loss of power.
On my DCC fitted Minitrix Glaskasten, seen below, which has a wheelbase of only 8 tenths of an inch (20mm) I have absolutely no problems running her slowly through insulfrog points.
The photo makes her look 4 times life size on my monitor btw. Her full length over the couplers is just over 2 inches.

tadpole · January 02, 2011, 05:23:56 PM

Insulfrogs are not great with German 4-wheel railcars (schienebussen), which can stall. Using two power cars in a train can sometimes help, but can throw up other problems.

Claude Dreyfus · January 10, 2011, 06:54:56 PM

I would always recommend electro-frogs - especially on sections with a lot of slow-speed running and/or shunting. Obviously it does depend on what stock you are running...however shorter wheelbased UK outline will drive you mad with constant stalling on the insule-frogs. Also the isolating properties of insule-frogs can be suspect...so we have often found that they need to be wired the same way as electro-frogs for decent section isolation. In that situation, you had may as well use electro throughout as at least the electrical connections are slightly more reliable...

poliss · January 10, 2011, 11:54:13 PM

If there's a loco with a shorter wheelbase than my Glaskasten I will be very surprised. The wheelbase is not the cause of locos stalling. I just measured the plastic frog of one of my Peco Insulfrog points and it is 9mm.
If you're getting short circuits as your locos pass over the frogs then it is almost certain that the back to back gauge of your wheels is wrong or the treads are far too wide.

Claude Dreyfus · January 11, 2011, 08:33:12 PM

Quote from: poliss on January 10, 2011, 11:54:13 PM
If there's a loco with a shorter wheelbase than my Glaskasten I will be very surprised. The wheelbase is not the cause of locos stalling. I just measured the plastic frog of one of my Peco Insulfrog points and it is 9mm.
If you're getting short circuits as your locos pass over the frogs then it is almost certain that the back to back gauge of your wheels is wrong or the treads are far too wide.

Your loco is DCC fitted though. Many DCC locos have something akin to a bolster unit - effectively an electric flywheel (although obviously far more sophisticated) - fitted to them. This is to aid smoother running and to prevent stalling where electrical contacts are more indifferent; for example on points. Your Glaskasten is a very pretty little engine, and dare I say it, a whole lot better engineered than many of the short wheel-based UK locos. You are inevitably going to get a much better quality of performance with this loco than, say, a Bachmann/Farish class 08.

poliss · January 12, 2011, 01:16:43 AM

The Glaskasten doesn't have an electric flywheel. It's too small for anything like the Lenz USP. The point is (pardon the pun) that if the wheelbase of your loco is longer than the plastic frog then there will always be at least one left and one right wheel picking up power. If your loco stalls, then it cannot possibly be because of the plastic frog, but must be because either your loco or set of points are faulty.

poliss · May 02, 2011, 01:13:41 PM

An old video of mine, (I really must make some new ones), of my Big Boy and Glaskasten. The Glaskasten passes slowly over four sets of insulfrog points without a hint of stalling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WyF7OeBDaM

H · May 08, 2011, 02:43:03 PM

Q) - Are electrofrog points really necessary?

A) - Yep, they're far better than insulfrog and cost only a few pennies more. Well worth the small additional expense and effort.

H.

poliss · May 08, 2011, 02:55:15 PM

Apart from cosmetic reasons, why do you think electrofrogs are better H?

MJKERR · May 08, 2011, 03:05:59 PM

On the scenic areas I much prefer the electrofrog as they look more realistic
The plastic parts just look out of place

There is a small (very small) improvement in performance, not noticeable if your trains are moving fast, but it can be helpful on some items at low speed
A good example is the Farish two axle Class 101 or HST power car

H · May 08, 2011, 03:27:55 PM

Quote from: poliss on May 08, 2011, 02:55:15 PM
Apart from cosmetic reasons,

There are other benefits but is that not reason enough?

H.

poliss · May 08, 2011, 04:00:08 PM

Nope. I don't have the room for Peco electrofrog points. Even Kato No.4s are a tight fit when you only have 6'x2' to play with.

H · May 08, 2011, 04:27:51 PM

Quote from: poliss on May 08, 2011, 04:00:08 PM
Nope. I don't have the room for Peco electrofrog points. Even Kato No.4s are a tight fit when you only have 6'x2' to play with.

You could always make your own points with live rail frog vees to fit the space; parts and kits are available. AFAIC electro-frog points are a must (for numerous reasons) and I'd re-gig the track layout design to fit them in. But I get the impression that you're happy with insulfrog points and that it doesn't really matter what people say about electrofrog points as you're unlikely to change.

H.

poliss · May 08, 2011, 04:39:21 PM

What are the numerous reasons? My Kato double scissors only needs 2 wires to operate all four point motors. How many wires does the Peco double scissors need, 16 or more?

H · May 08, 2011, 04:50:56 PM

Quote from: poliss on May 08, 2011, 04:39:21 PM
What are the numerous reasons? My Kato double scissors only needs 2 wires to operate all four point motors. How many wires does the Peco double scissors need, 16 or more?

Hmmm, sounds like you've definately made up your mind and just want to argue over irrelavances like the number of wires. IMO Kato track looks very poor, but I don't think I'll bite and respond over the wires.

H.