A a newbie and trying not to overspend, bought a rake of used "n" gauge box vans - mainly Peco I think. They are very light indeed - pulling no problem but pushing, especially over points, and bad things happen! They are easy to disassemble and adding weight is easy. Same goes for open trucks - need a load in my opinion. I run fairly short trains and don't want to overstress the engine.
What would you recommend and how much? I have heard of the evils of expanding lead but I'm not thinking of a permanent fix until I find an optimum. Currently my experiments are with Blu-tac and some old nuts and bolts; What do you experienced modellers do? Are metal wheels a help?
I sometimes use a brass pin from a mains plug or
an old steel nut, usually sunk into a piece of
Milliput which can be shaped so it doesn't rattle
in the truck. Not sure if steel wheels make a difference.
To be more scientific you can get weights for model aircraft in - I think 1/4 oz "ingots" with self adhesive bottoms. A 1/4 oz, or less, would be a good starting point. It makes shunting more satisfying as the extra inertia makes coupling up smoother and more reliable. But nails, nuts etc are fine; gravity works just the same on these!
More weight is definitely worth trying. You won't over-stress the engine, but you need to be judicious, and keep all your vehicles similar in weight. A heavy train may cause problems with the leading vehicles, and if you have gradients will reduce the length of train you can get up.
Metal wheels are generally better and worth swapping if you don't have too many wagons (i.e. the expense!)
Cheers Jon :)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Weights-for-Wagons-Coaches-etc-3-Strips-of-60g-12x10g-12x5g/253328583549?hash=item3afb8f6b7d:g:cDUAAOSwUn9aAtIZ (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Weights-for-Wagons-Coaches-etc-3-Strips-of-60g-12x10g-12x5g/253328583549?hash=item3afb8f6b7d:g:cDUAAOSwUn9aAtIZ)
on ebay
Thanks guys, things definitely run better with weight. No idea that actual weights for models existed. Fe 5 and 10, I'd guess that's grams.
for permanent loads in open wagons Milliput would be a good bet.
Fe is for iron(not lead) and weight in grammes
Quote from: Old Crow on February 19, 2018, 12:20:19 AM
Fe 5 and 10, .
Excuse, I missed something :) where did Fe5 and 10 come from ? Fe chemically is Iron, Pb is lead. but isnt that all ott a bit.
CofG I think is maybe more important and if using Peco wagons with ferrous plates in em, then a neo magnet or two underneath is worth a try (easily removed)
Hi, this is what the N-RE guys recommend for rolling stock at their meetings:
To improve the safety against derailing, especially of inhomogeneous, long or pushed trains, the mass of all cars is increased to unified 7.5 g per a axis. Removable freights are allowed to add additional 30 %.
hope it helps...
Gerard
In fact some of my peco wagons are still held together by a neo top and bottom because I didnt want to use that stupid steel? nut on a plastic spigot excuse for an engineer's nightmare. :(
Quote from: Old Crow on February 18, 2018, 09:00:26 PM
I have heard of the evils of expanding lead
I dont think it is the fault of the lead expanding, more to do with its interaction (chemical by-products expanding) with pva. Maybe with other water based products as well, ? but pva is often a weapon of choice so maybe gets a bad press in this respect ?
Somewhere down the line, I was given an A5 sized sheet of lead. This has lasted me a while, gluing chunks in some loco body kits to get a better weight distribution and gluing to the floor of goods vans. Open wagons can be more of a challenge, especially empty flats, one plankers etc. Sometimes I can get a washer or two under the floor without it showing too much at viewing distances - painting it back helps. More recently a mate who once worked with the Electricity Boards gave me a supply of those lead seals they use to seal our meters. He has loads of these. These can be cut or squashed as required. But yes I have found that traditional 4 wheelers can be an issue - they bounce on less than perfect track. Many of my open wagons now carry loads from 10 Commandments. That helps.
Worth bearing in mind when choosing a material to give extra weight to a wagon, whether you use, or are likely to use, Dapol Easi Shunt uncouplers with magnets on the track (or other brands). If you do, you won't want the wagon to move because of the attraction with the magnet.
Quote from: Old Crow on February 19, 2018, 12:20:19 AM
Thanks guys, things definitely run better with weight. No idea that actual weights for models existed. Fe 5 and 10, I'd guess that's grams.
for permanent loads in open wagons Milliput would be a good bet.
I think they are just adhesive weights for balancing car alloy wheels, they don't look too expensive, but if you search for 'adhesive alloy wheel weights' on eBay, there are better deals.
Have a read if you haven't seen these:-
https://www.nmra.org/beginner/weight (https://www.nmra.org/beginner/weight)
http://www.mill-lane-sidings.co.uk/mlswagonweight.html (http://www.mill-lane-sidings.co.uk/mlswagonweight.html)
Thanks guys. Of course Fe is iron but interesting that that E-bay outlet sells it for modelling. Looked at the links and the Mill Lane one sells adhesive lead strip and recommends sealing it with pva!!!! Says he's had no issues with lead but I think the "health and safety" is a bit ott - "wear gloves?" Yes it's poisonous, but just don't suck it and wash your hands afterwards. I agree about the need for perfect track but points are bumpy by nature and light wagons misbehave when pushed.
I have used coins of the realm as temporary weights, but I wish they would make them a couple of millimetres smaller so they could become the permanent weight. US and UK smallest coins tend to be around 18mm diameter, but the euro cent comes in at 16.25mm and 2.27 grams which is more useful.
At last something to use my 1 cent coins for !! Just dropped one on the floor of the local shop I thought it was at least a Euro so spent time looking for it, Most annoying !1
Jerry
In fish keeping you use small bit of lead weight to hold living plants down to stop them floating. I use bits of that, you can pick it up from eBay for a few quid and it will go a long way as you don't need much.
You can also get lead curtain weights from haberdashers
about the size of a 50p coin, easy to cut to the
required size/shape.
Or some of my wife's cakes they are like rocks.
I have made up a number of the Peco 4 wheel tankers. Before joining the two halves of the tank together, I put in a small amount of 'Liquid Gravity', with a runny superglue, (forget which one :doh:). Makes quite a difference and you do not need a lot. The container it comes in still feels as heavy as it was when I bought it! Obviously, being inside the tank, it is not visible - it could always be covered by a load in an open wagon.
https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/gb/rc-modelling/83-liquid-gravity-5060243900470.html (https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/gb/rc-modelling/83-liquid-gravity-5060243900470.html)
If you get the cheap wrist/ leg weights the keep fit brigade use then there
Full of really small shot.
Mix with a bit of pva and would make good weights.
Ron
Quote from: Old Crow on February 18, 2018, 09:00:26 PMWhat would you recommend and how much?
With one or two rare exceptions, the ideal weight for a wagon is what it left the factory with...
So contrary to many of the above comments, I would recommend NOT adding any weight
unless the original weight is missing. With Peco wagons (especially if they were assembled from kits) it is not uncommon to find the weight missing from second hand examples where previous owners have removed weight to try to cure haulage problems!
The majority of derailment and other issues especially on point work are NOT weight related but an issue of the wheel-rail interface... Oddly the moulded nylon Peco wheelsets are right on the lower limit of Back-to-Back clearance to be compatible with Peco Points... Personally I would be changing the wheels not the weight.
I've never found a need to change the weight of a Peco wagon on replacement wheels (usually either Farish or Parkside)
I must admit to having experienced zero problems with shunting Peco wagons over points but have never tried it with more than 25-30 4 wheeled wagons. Also I've not tried over a diamond crossing or double slip......................yet :uneasy:
Interesting! I did wonder about the plastic wheels and I've bought some metal ones. Have to say, going forward over facing points is problematic but a lot better with a bit of weight. Current problems - and again I'm using "pre-owned" are misbehaving bogies on older Farish suburban coaches. I'm having to redesign my trackwork to give smooth run-in and run-outs of points and no sudden reverse curves. Cursing a bit because the one point that won't be cured is in the middle of the main siding set! Ah well! I'm learning by experience.
I have been following this thread with interest since it began, but have refrained from posting until now. Like NewportNobby, I too have heaps of Peco wagons, and to be honest, I've never really had any major problems with them derailing when being either pulled or shunted, and that's straight from the box. I have never found the need for any extra weight.
At the very worst, I've had the odd derailment on a diamond every now and again, but nothing worth fretting over. The three-way point at the Castle Eden station throat is also occasionally problematic, but it is a Shinohara product installed long before Peco three-ways became available. The rail on the Shinohara point is of heavier construction than even the Peco Code 80 (or so it seems to my eyes), and I had quite a bit of difficulty getting the inside surfaces lined up with the Peco stuff.
However, as stated earlier, I haven't yet found the need to add extra weight to Peco wagons. :beers:
George
Have the offending wagons had their internal weight removed?
If not, then they should not derail unless there is a track or coupling problem - I have stacks of Peco wagons and this is simply not a problem, even for large 40+ wagon rakes. There can always be the odd wagon with a droopy coupling etc, but nothing critical to running, and usually easily sorted out.
Adding weight is not generally a good solution to many problems, it's crude, and it rarely tackles the root cause of the problem.
Cheers,
Alan
I used this stuff. I didn't get if from here.
https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Deluxe-Materials-BD-38-Liquid-Gravity-250g-Deluxe-Materials-GM-DLBD-38.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzrTUBRCnARIsAL0mqcy_zZGr2tzrfydA0fr4OGby6Z0u58_k02Fd0LsmJDBckZQr3YjzxPsaAvTKEALw_wcB (https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Deluxe-Materials-BD-38-Liquid-Gravity-250g-Deluxe-Materials-GM-DLBD-38.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzrTUBRCnARIsAL0mqcy_zZGr2tzrfydA0fr4OGby6Z0u58_k02Fd0LsmJDBckZQr3YjzxPsaAvTKEALw_wcB)
Yep - that is the same stuff I referred to in #20. Like everything else, different sellers have different prices.
I bought some vans from a Dutch friend of mine. They were a bit dusty so I decided to give them a wash in some lukewarm water, black liquid started seeping out of them, I took off the roofs to find that each one had a 'Zoute Drop' (salted liquorice drop) weight inside.
So all you need to do is go to The Netherlands and get some liquorice drops :D
:NGaugersRule:
Well the problematic wagons are "pre-owned" and the couplings are not in a good state, plus the old wheels might be an issue. Speaking of couplings, does anyone know the magic trick if getting those XXXX springs in.
Quote from: Old Crow on February 21, 2018, 03:38:03 PM
Well the problematic wagons are "pre-owned" and the couplings are not in a good state, plus the old wheels might be an issue. Speaking of couplings, does anyone know the magic trick if getting those XXXX springs in.
If they're Peco as you said in the opening post, they shouldn't have and don't need springs! :confused2: :hmmm:
Ah! Well all of these have springs where the couplings are ok - or had springs where they are missing. I have new Farish couplings and I have the springs but getting the springs in is XXX!!!
It may well be that the former owner replaced the existing couplings with others that don't quite fit as the horizontal bar on the couplings is prone to pull out of its slot. I might have to make something unless there is a source of the original couplings??
Quote from: Old Crow on February 21, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
I might have to make something unless there is a source of the original couplings??
The Technical department at Peco are an extremely helpful bunch so it may pay you to give them a call. It's not as if the 'Elsie' couplings are out of production.
Before we go any further, I think we need photos of these recalcitrant apparently mongrel wagons so we can be sure of what we are dealing with, otherwise we are assuming and could very easily give wrong advice... :hmmm:
Actually the Peco wagons aren't so bad. Among the rake I've got some old repainted Farish box vans and it's these that are iffy. Spent the evening "pushing things around" and these Farish ones are wobbly and can actually jump over points. Tested the gauge and it's very tight -almost under gauge moulded plastic wheels. Well I've got some metal ones which I think you can adjust so I'll try those. I appreciate the advice guys; I'm sure you experienced modellers have perfect track. I'm getting there; gentle curves and entries into points. I note even a slight gap at rail joints is detectable in "N".
Current annoyance is poorly performing bogies on old Farish coaches. Maybe it's age and wear on the mount but I reckon the wheels can contact the coach body on hard curves and some of the wheel sets don't turn well. I feel a small washer to distance the bogie and a screw fixing in place of that fragile pin may work.
Quote from: PLD on February 21, 2018, 03:43:42 PM
If they're Peco as you said in the opening post, they shouldn't have and don't need springs! :confused2: :hmmm:
Very very early Peco wagons had sprung couplings (and larger buffers).
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Old Crow on February 21, 2018, 10:48:33 PM
I'm sure you experienced modellers have perfect track.
Personally, I wouldn't make such a claim, but I do have (too many) years of experience in putting Peco track together and know what to look for. I have to say that, straight from the box, some Peco points can be very 'lumpy' unless securely fastened down. A trick that always helps me is to put my bridge camera on 'video' setting and take a short film of any portion of track causing an issue. This allows me to play it back/pause it to see what the problem is. The camera can be quite cruel. Running a finger slowly over all track joins also helps discover 'bumps'.
Good tracklaying is something you learn with experience, it's worth being patient and doing it slowly and carefully. It also pays to have the right tools. When I started in N (when dinosaurs roamed) I had a trainset mentality and expected to clip all the track together on the carpet like I did when I was little, N gauge is a bit more finicky.
One thing I haven't learned is resisting a 'bargain' so I've ended up allsorts of rollingstock in various states of disrepair (some people do strange things to their property) although I have learned a lot by trying to fix them up.
:NGaugersRule:
I think you and I must be of the same mould because I concur with everything in your post! :thumbsup:
Thanks guys. I am a newbie (though old) to "N" and I'm learning. Certainly, as Dr Al keeps saying, track issues are fundamental. I'm re-working my original plans to remove any sharp curves and give better lead ins to points and finding out what flexi will and won't do. I'm getting there and things are running pretty well now. And yes, there are clunky points, even electrofrog which I have to say are a revelation. And yeah - second hand stuff can be a real lottery. I appreciate the advice guys.
Quote from: PLD on February 20, 2018, 08:33:48 PM
With one or two rare exceptions, the ideal weight for a wagon is what it left the factory with...
One of those exceptions being the Farish Presflos. They have a very small weight in them due to the shape of the bottom of the wagon. Those are so light that they'll happilly jump off at the slightest opportunity, when being propelled.
Quote
The majority of derailment and other issues especially on point work are NOT weight related but an issue of the wheel-rail interface... Oddly the moulded nylon Peco wheelsets are right on the lower limit of Back-to-Back clearance to be compatible with Peco Points... Personally I would be changing the wheels not the weight.
I've never found a need to change the weight of a Peco wagon on replacement wheels (usually either Farish or Parkside)
It's worth pointing out that Parkside or Farish wheels are heavier than the Delrin Peco wheels, so by changing the wheels you are also adding weight. You're right though that Peco wagons tend to run far better on non-Peco wheels: I almost always replace Peco wheels with Parkside, these days.