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General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: gosmegane on July 11, 2018, 06:37:01 PM

Title: New layout - platform length
Post by: gosmegane on July 11, 2018, 06:37:01 PM
After having an n gauge trainset for years, I've finally got a mancave so I can have an n gauge model railway.

I have a book of LMS stations and there's a plan of each station.  It seems to me that platform length is around 700ft on the one that I want to model.  Does that really equate to a model length of 1.4m.  It seems long to me. 

I want to do an L shaped layout in the corner, each leg about 2 to 2.5m from the corner giving an overall length of 4 to 5m, (maybe making it triangular so I can run a loop as long as I can remove the base length when not in use.)

My question is about platform length.  1.4m seem very long.  What length rake of coaches is that and does that seem reasonable to people.  Ideally I wanted 2 stations, but at that length each it would take too much space I think.

Any advice on platform length would be very gratefully received.

Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: kirky on July 11, 2018, 06:53:55 PM
Hi @gosmegane (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6869)
Welcome to the friendly forum.
So you are looking at platform length. A mk 1 is about 5 and half inches over the buffers. Add in the coupling length and you are looking at about a foot for two coaches. 1.4m equates to about 4 and half feet so a scale 700 foot length platform gives you a train length of 8 coaches plus a loco...just. Thats about right for a smallish station.
Hope this helps.

Kirky
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Train Waiting on July 11, 2018, 06:59:51 PM
Hello and welcome to the Forum.

Platforms tend to be long, particularly in main-line stations.

700 feet is about 4'8" in 'N' gauge.  If you allow just under six inches for a main line carriage, that's about a 10 carriage formation.

Which station are you looking at?

For a model railway, things are always more realistic if your trains do not always completely fill the platform length, so it's nice to have platforms a bit longer than you normally need.

We railway modellers often use a thing called 'selective compression'.  If you keep the station buildings the same size as your prototype, you can normally reduce the platform length a bit.  How much could be the subject of much debate, but, say 1/3 for starters.  that's about a 460' platform or seven carriages.  This will look good with four, five or six carriage trains.  Will the rest of your layout be able to cope with trains of that length?

Just some random thoughts.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: RailGooner on July 11, 2018, 08:29:59 PM
Welcome aboard gosmegane. :wave:
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: PLD on July 11, 2018, 09:22:40 PM
Quote from: gosmegane on July 11, 2018, 06:37:01 PM
I have a book of LMS stations and there's a plan of each station.  It seems to me that platform length is around 700ft on the one that I want to model.  Does that really equate to a model length of 1.4m.  It seems long to me.

My question is about platform length.  1.4m seem very long.  What length rake of coaches is that and does that seem reasonable to people.  Ideally I wanted 2 stations, but at that length each it would take too much space I think.
Your maths is correct, but 700 ft is not excessively long.

A BR MK1 is 63ft 5in over head stocks (64ft 8in over buffers) 700ft is only 10 coaches + a medium sized loco.

That is longer than typical for a small country station, but short for a major main-line station, which could commonly hold 14-16 coaches. The longest  ever in the UK was at the old Manchester Exchange at over 2000 ft and there are plenty of other examples exceeding 1000 ft
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Intercity on July 11, 2018, 09:58:28 PM
Gloucester is/was a hair under 2000ft, and Colchester a hair over 2000ft.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Newportnobby on July 11, 2018, 10:15:25 PM
Hello gosmegane, and welcome to the forum :wave:
What folks have said above is quite correct but also I think a train that occupies more than about 1/3rd of your scenic area will look too long really, apart from freight trains which can be extremely long :D I seem to recall the majority of us also prefer an odd number of coaches in a train but don't ask me why :no:
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: kirky on July 12, 2018, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 11, 2018, 10:15:25 PM
I seem to recall the majority of us also prefer an odd number of coaches in a train but don't ask me why :no:
Numerosity.

Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: kiwi1941 on July 12, 2018, 04:36:56 AM
QuoteI have a book of LMS stations and there's a plan of each station.
What is the book? TIA, Brian
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Bealman on July 12, 2018, 05:35:31 AM
G'day from Australia, gosmegane, and welcome to the NGF!  :thumbsup:

What folk have said is correct - platforms are surprisingly long things. I have a terminus station on my layout which I must admit I've never measured, but I'd estimate around 1.2m.

You've got me curious now.... I'll put a tape measure to it when I get home!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Bealman on July 12, 2018, 06:26:18 AM
OK, just did. 1.3m on a slight reverse curve. It will hold eight Mk1 coaches and a tender locomotive or a large diesel.

Sorry for the dilapidation, but old layout currently undergoing restoration.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/255-120718061911.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/255-120718062040.jpeg)
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: The Q on July 12, 2018, 01:29:36 PM
One of the stations I'm modelling,  (in EM gauge) was built with 2 305ft platforms, in 1905 the station was rebuilt with, 1 200ft platform, one about 500ft, 1 platforms in excess of 700 ft, one in excess of 800ft, and two of about 1000 ft.

In other words:
If you are not modelling a particular place rule number 1 applies..
If it's a real place , How much compression can you tolerate..
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: njee20 on July 12, 2018, 01:58:31 PM
If short on space consider half a station? With the remainder hidden under a scenic break. Allows you to park long trains in the platform without it taking up the entire scenic area.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Newportnobby on July 12, 2018, 02:26:34 PM
Quote from: njee20 on July 12, 2018, 01:58:31 PM
If short on space consider half a station? With the remainder hidden under a scenic break. Allows you to park long trains in the platform without it taking up the entire scenic area.

See the 'Tanners Hill' pics as an example of what njee20 refers to in this post................

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34393.msg409410#msg409410 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34393.msg409410#msg409410)
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: njee20 on July 12, 2018, 02:33:50 PM
I recall Horseley Fields was set up that way in its original guise too.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Portpatrick on July 12, 2018, 03:53:07 PM
Welcome aboard.  Ask all you need.  There are plenty here with good experience.  I still learn things and I have been in N gauge for over 40 years!  You have received good advice on platform length.  Much depends on what sort of effect you want to create.  In practice I would be very happy if I had space for 8 coaches on a major express.  Though in steam days up to 12 or more was quite common - if your locos will pull them!    Others will feel differently.  Our club layout will handle 8 (9 in one fiddle yard road).  But the half station idea is very worth consideration.  I have seen it done on some exhibition layouts and it has looked most effective - sorry I cannot remember which layouts).
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Caz on July 12, 2018, 07:59:05 PM
Welcome to our friendly forum gosmegane, great to have another new member on board and as you've already experienced, they're a very helpful bunch on here.
:welcomesign:
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Bealman on July 13, 2018, 01:18:46 AM
The half station is an excellent solution and has been done effectively on many layouts. Should my own layout ever reach completion, that is exactly what I will be doing for the major station.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: daversmth on July 13, 2018, 10:18:00 AM
As a relative newbie myself, just to say the problem I have had with platform design in general is that my efforts to minimise the gap between the rail and the platform edge have resulted in some of my stock catching the platform edge.

This can happen anywhere you have a platform near a curve or points crossover. I set my platforms as close to the rail as I could based on the rolling stock I had at the time, but some later rolling stock purchased has detailed parts that protrude out further and strike the platform edge where it is near a curve. Diesel loco and dmu cab steps are the worst offenders.

I would be interested to know if there are any guidelines that can be applied at the planning stage  to prevent this from occuring  and also to flag this up in the hope that it helps to prevent others from making the same mistake.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Bealman on July 13, 2018, 10:35:53 AM
Clearances are definitely important, as in my infamous (at least on this forum) gronk pic.... not faked, it really did that!

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=18359.msg187920#msg187920 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=18359.msg187920#msg187920)
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Portpatrick on July 13, 2018, 12:10:38 PM
Yes the latest gronews and I hear the class 3 262T are  the wide ones
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 13, 2018, 01:54:49 PM
hi

Use what works for you. When i built my platforms I considered : using the longest piece of stock along the track with a pencil held against a corner, the line will show minimum distance to platform edge and repeated with a pencil in middle of a coach if planning curved platforms.


With the club I model with we found that engineers hoppers and cargo waggons which have narrow straight-sided bodies also have protruding handbrake wheels which can foul line side structures. The Dapol "silver bullet" tankers which are superb wagons have moulded ladders which are definitely out of gauge and struck anyy carefully positioned platforms every time until the bottom of each ladder was carefully bent inwards by 1mm.

Any locomotive with coupling rods, from the humble diesel shunter to the largest main line steam locomotive, should be tested in a "worst case" scenario as the amount of play (side-to-side movement, "slop" or "waddle") as they move along the track can mean the rods hit the platforms.

Beware also of the overhang of platform edge coping stones as trains run past platform end ramps. Remember these overhangs can increase you platform width by a millimetre or so which can make all the difference to a train clearing or striking the ramp.
good luck


Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Caz on July 13, 2018, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: daversmth on July 13, 2018, 10:18:00 AM
As a relative newbie myself, just to say the problem I have had with platform design in general is that my efforts to minimise the gap between the rail and the platform edge have resulted in some of my stock catching the platform edge.

This can happen anywhere you have a platform near a curve or points crossover. I set my platforms as close to the rail as I could based on the rolling stock I had at the time, but some later rolling stock purchased has detailed parts that protrude out further and strike the platform edge where it is near a curve. Diesel loco and dmu cab steps are the worst offenders.

I would be interested to know if there are any guidelines that can be applied at the planning stage  to prevent this from occuring  and also to flag this up in the hope that it helps to prevent others from making the same mistake.

I have found that the Peco re-railer is very good for setting the "gap" between rail and platform.  The blunt (high) end of the railer clips over the rails and the sides of it can set how close you can sent the platford edge.  Other makes of re-railers are available but don't set the clearance correctly.

If you lift the front of the re-railer off of the track you can just use the blunt end to go around curved track to set the distance.

(https://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector//products/SL-337.jpg)
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 13, 2018, 02:10:24 PM
i did toy with the idea of a point in the station but decided not to and left the points at the station ramps of the platforms to avoid stock clashing with platform edges


i have travelled on a lot of trains. platform 17 clapham junction the worst, lewisham in london, beeston near nottingham, culprits
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: kiwi1941 on July 20, 2018, 07:15:45 AM
Quote from: kiwi1941 on July 12, 2018, 04:36:56 AM
QuoteI have a book of LMS stations and there's a plan of each station.
What is the book? TIA, Brian
Bump.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Newportnobby on July 20, 2018, 09:50:49 AM
Quote from: gosmegane on July 11, 2018, 06:37:01 PM

I have a book of LMS stations and there's a plan of each station.

@gosmegane (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6869)
I'm sure not just Brian is interested.
Can you provide details of the book please?
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Bealman on July 20, 2018, 10:21:47 AM
I have David Jenkinson's "Rails in the Fells" book, which has details and plans of stations, but of course it's S & C.
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Portpatrick on July 20, 2018, 11:55:02 AM
I have a book of several plans at home..  will check it when I ret5
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: Portpatrick on July 20, 2018, 09:27:58 PM
An  Historical Survey of Selected LMS Stations. Volume One.   Don't know if there are any more.   Oxford Publishing  .  1982
Title: Re: New layout - platform length
Post by: gosmegane on July 31, 2018, 11:19:42 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 20, 2018, 09:50:49 AM
Quote from: gosmegane on July 11, 2018, 06:37:01 PM

I have a book of LMS stations and there's a plan of each station.

@gosmegane (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6869)
I'm sure not just Brian is interested.
Can you provide details of the book please?



Sorry for the delya in replying.  I've been on holiday.  Thank you all for the great advice.  I think it's going to need some thinking about.

The book is, as metntioned, An Historical Survey of selected LMS Stations Layouts and Illustrations by Dr R Preston Hendry and R Powell Hendry (Volume 1)
First printed 1982
Reprinted 2001
ISBN 086093 168 4

Picked up off a local market stall.

I really wanted to model Keswick (v complicated an expensive) or Kenilworth, both are special places to me.

Cheers.

All