To pull or not to pull? That is the question

[Newportnobby]

I have many books, DVDs and recorded TV programmes about railways but they all tend to focus on the locos and not what they're hauling. I have my own ideas as to what looks right/sensible but, in a genuine quest for knowledge, would dearly like to know where the line gets drawn. Could, for example, a class 24 pull 40 loaded 16T mineral wagons? How many populated coaches could an Ivatt 2-6-2T be expected to haul? Am I alone in being a 'serial counter' such that when I see a powerful loco on screen I immediately start counting the wagons/coaches and get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train? Would Freud have a field day with me as I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?

Does anyone have a source of such haulage information other than their own memories, and is such data in any way related to tractive effort such that I could formulate trains suitable for my models?
Thank you.

[Dorsetmike]

Hi Mick, like you I tend to count carriages/wagons. Some of the books I have on carriage stock do give some ideas of train make up, example, a typical make up for a Waterloo to Bournemouth, Swanage and Weymouth could be 5 cars including restaurant for Bournemouth West,  1 or 2 coaches for Swanage 3 or 4 for Weymouth on Monday through Friday, Saturday might see that increased by 1 or 2 coaches, Summer Saturdays a whole relief train, you'd probably find similar info for other companies, my books are all Southern oriented. Another clue can be found in books about locos that include performance details which usually include details of the load.

[MJKERR]

I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?

In most cases when you add the loco you get an even number in the consist
Most loco hauled trains used to be based on the longest possible consist, dependent on various factors
Where a long train would use a single line with passing places, the consist was usually as long as possible, then deducting one coach in some cases

[dannyboy]

Am I alone in being a 'serial counter' such that when I see a powerful loco on screen I immediately start counting the wagons/coaches and get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train?

Okay, I admit it - you are not alone

Would Freud have a field day with me as I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?

There must be something sikol pysocl physcho in what you say - have you ever noticed that the majority of car wheels have odd numbers of 'spokes', usually five 

[bluedepot]

"get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train"

this annoys me too, esp. for mixed freights.  fair enough for very long block freights i can see why you'd cut it... but for mixed freight and passenger trains i wish they would show the full train on dvds or videos online.



tim

[weave]

Hi NPN,

Odd numbers are more appealing to the eye whether it's plants, pictures, whatever, something to do with symmetry or lack of, but also to me railway coaches. You do not need help!

Agree about the loco rather than the train thing. Modelling Continental though I'm quite lucky regarding coaches in that the people who film trains posted on youtube seem to be fascinated with the destination boards and therefore walk up the length of the platform still filming the whole train. Great for research.

Probably doesn't help.

Back to my bottle of wine, or was that 3 

Cheers weave 

[Bealman]

I think you're  all mad. 

Now..... how many kangaroos did I see today?  I think it was an odd number.... 

[BoxTunnel]

Great question NPN, and one that is perplexing me being new to the game.

I too immediately start counting wagons/coaches on every layout I see - I blame the Count on Sesame Street when I was a young 'un.

During a very brief career as a cook (I could not claim to be a "chef"), it seems that odd numbers are more pleasing to the eye than even numbers.  For example we would never put two scallops on a plate, it would either be one biggun or three smaller.  Similar with the dressing - we worked in triangles rather than straight lines or rectangles.

This is so ingrained in me that I must have the TV or radio volume on an odd number!  On the PC I am typing this on, the volume is set to 51 - I've just checked!

Graham, thinking that OCD should actually be CDO, just so that the letters are in alphabetical order.

[Webbo]

Hi Mick, Tim, Dannyboy, Mike, BoxTunnel

Here's a video for all you serial counters - be careful for what you ask for as this one does not cut off before the end of the train.

This video was taken on the Canadian Pacific main line near Salmon Arm in British Columbia and represents a typical loaded grain train. Each loco is nominally 4400 HP so the total is 13000 HP. With 100+ freight cars each having a typical weight of 100 T or so, the total train weight would be in excess of 10,000 T. The power per ton of train is less than 1.3 HP/T. Wikepedia tells me that NPN's class 24 has a nominal power output of 1160 HP so assuming the same power to weight ratio as the CP train, the class 24 would be able to pull about 900 T so should manage 40 16 T wagons assuming that each wagon weighs 7 T and has 16 T of load (total = 920 T).

This of course ignores such relevant issues as lengths of passing loops, gradients, rolling resistance, speed etc.

Webbo

[The Q]

In my own case being a bit older we didn't get a TV till I think  I was 8, so books are my thing, I rarely watch videos and other than the News not much TV.

So for information on train formations I automatically go to books, and in particular on books on the line I'm interested in, So I know for instance the normal maximum freight length was only 20 loaded wagons due to the steepness of the northern half of the line. Most passenger trains were of 2 or 4 carriages and maybe a horse box, except for the through "express" which often had 6 or 7 carriages not all from the "Home" company.

Then of course you can look up books on the locomotive classes  that run on your line, this will give their maximum haulage capacity in wagons or Carriages.

[Train Waiting]

I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?

In most cases when you add the loco you get an even number in the consist
Most loco hauled trains used to be based on the longest possible consist, dependent on various factors
Where a long train would use a single line with passing places, the consist was usually as long as possible, then deducting one coach in some cases

Thank you very much for this.  I've seen a lot of trains in my time but I had not noticed that the formation is normally an odd number, or an even number if including the locomotive.  I suppose that I have never really counted the vehicles in the formation that often.  Fascinating stuff.   

With regard to single lines: I well remember the Up sleeper roaring past my house on the steep gradient from Millburn Jcn to Culloden.  It was a very long train, probably at about the limit for a single 'Brush Type 4' on Slochd Bank.  Most other trains were a lot shorter.  The ex-Highland main line had (and still has) long passing loops.

Thanks again and all best wishes.

John

[martyn]

Interesting comments about the formation being even, when including the loco-but weren't 'Deltic' timings based on loco+8 coaches? I'll have to check some of the formations that I downloaded from the GER Society for the Liverpool St lines.

My own recollection of 24s is small-they had left my local area by the time that I was interested in 12":1' railways, but I do have strong memory of their bigger brother 25s usually operating in pairs over the Midland and LNWR main lines, especially on 16t mineral wagons.............

I expect there was a similar set of rules in diesel days, but in steam days, many lines had a list of loads that each class could haul, which took into account gradient, freight or passenger, and the nominal tractive effort/engine horse power of the loco classes. Some locos were found in practice to be able to haul more or less than the nominal load, and the traffic rules could be changed to reflect this.

HTH

Martyn

[martyn]

A VERY quick scan of the 1956 and 1983 working diagrams seem to show no preference for odd or even numbers; qualified by working via Cambridge seem to be mainly odd numbers, and via Ipswich even numbers. I suspect that terminal restrictions may have influence on this (Cambridge line tended to use the shorter platforms at Liverpool St, Ipswich line the longer centre roads).

Cross country and inter-regionals seem to have no bias, and of course, formations vary according to the calendar date (for summer/winter service) and also day of the week.

Many longer branches were three, some times plus a van.

Photos, where it is possible to count the total number of coaches, seem to back up the above.

Afterthought; whilst most DMUs and EMUs were built as two or four car units, examples exist/existed of three car for both.

Martyn

[PaulCheffus]

"get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train"

this annoys me too, esp. for mixed freights.  fair enough for very long block freights i can see why you'd cut it... but for mixed freight and passenger trains i wish they would show the full train on dvds or videos online.



tim

Hi

I have been researching various rakes for my layout from DVDs and 95% of the time you cannot get all the details because the film has been cut. However in the period I am researching late 1970s film was quite expensive so its understandable that you would not record the whole train.

Cheers

Paul

[Newportnobby]

Thanks to all for the replies so far, especially Webbo who has come up with a rough 'HP to tonnage' formula even though it doesn't take into account terrain.
To a certain extent my question is academic as space constriction on my layout means the distance between one tunnel exit and the next tunnel entrance is approx 8 - 9 feet, so I'm limited as to what I can hang off a loco without it looking silly (I suspect my Poppylino will virtually fill that space!). I have no gradients and am running DC. The latter means double heading is tricky as finding two locos which run at the same pace is nigh on impossible. I do have a dummy Hymek which I always attach to the front so it's not adding to weight being pulled but is pushed by the train loco which, if a steamer, is obviously rescuing a failed diesel
As a general rule large freight locos (9F, WD, 8F etc) pull as much as I can hang on them without it looking silly, so generally between 30-40 4 wheel wagons. Large passenger locos - anything between 7-9 MK1s, smaller tank locos/Bo-Bo diesels 3-5 MK1s and the odd trip freight may be 5-6 small wagons behind a Jinty or the like.
There's no science behind any of the above. My Observers Books of Locomotives always give the tractive effort but, being somewhat dense, I have no idea what meaning this imparts.
I was hoping there is some science out there I can tap into. Webbo has given me a chance.

Out of interest, I do have a DVD about the climb to Shap and a class 40 with passenger train is being banked by a Std 5 steamer but they both fail to make the summit and have to be pushed over the top by the next class 40 also with passenger train! What a sight that must have been
Mind you, the class 40s (much though I love the Whistlers) were either underpowered or overweight depending on your viewpoint. More likely the latter as that is why the 4th axle was added to each bogie.