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Author Topic: GWR Branding - I'm confused!  (Read 380 times)

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Offline BoxTunnel

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GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« on: August 08, 2017, 09:51:13 am »
As the title suggests, I'm a little confused about GWR branding.

The excellent GWR.org.uk website tells me that the Shirtbutton monogram replaced the G {CREST} W in 1934 and was itself replaced by the iconic G W R branding in 1942.

Yet whilst researching the Manor class (as I've recently bought one  :) ) I found a picture of Hinton Manor, built in 1939, sporting the G {CREST} W branding.  Surely if she was built five years into the Shirtbutton era, she would have had the Shirtbutton branding (as in fact she apparently now does whilst on static display in Swindon).

Link is here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:7819_Hinton_Manor_at_Bridgnorth.jpg

Now the picture is in black and white so I'm assuming it is an old photograph but there are no details about when it was taken (unless the date of 29th Feb 2012 is when it was taken and not when it was uploaded to Wikipedia). 

-----a few minutes later-----

Actually, now I have looked further it also says "Camera: Olympus OM1 35mm SLR. Film: Kodak".  Therefore this must be a photograph taken in 2012 on black and white film whilst Hinton Manor was at the Severn Valley Railway.

Which begs the question, why did the SVR (or others) repaint her in a livery that she would never have worn?

I'm now even more confused  :confused2:

Graham, starting to think he's bitten off more than he can chew with this whole railway thing!
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

Offline NeilWhite

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 09:58:26 am »
It would have been repainted into G {crest} W livery in 1942 or so - probably whenever it's next repaint job was. Yes, it would have had the shirtbutton roundel painted on it when built in 1939, but they were all painted over into the 'new' livery as the liveries changed. Typically they would have been updated to the new livery at their next repaint or service. When the new liveries were brought in there would be a period (a year or so??) when there would be a mix of the old and new out there.

Neil
 

Offline newportnobby

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 09:59:31 am »

Offline BoxTunnel

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 10:16:05 am »
Thank you both.

I was certainly very confused as I thought the G {CREST} W predated the Shirtbutton! The problem with this railway malarkey is that there is sooo much information out there but only an decreasingly small amount of memory in my ageing brain with which to retain it.

Graham.
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

Offline NeMo

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 10:56:15 am »
If you don't already have it, be sure to buy this book...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Modellers-Guide-Great-Western-Railway/1857942043

Used paperback editions are less than 3 on Amazon, and the book is chock-full of the sort of information you're asking about.

As @NeilWhite says, there was some overlap, but you'd want to be careful. The GWR was aggressively modern in terms of branding, having a very strong corporate identity, and by the 1920s they were as media savvy as, say, modern Virgin Trains. If the public were going to see a given train on a well-used line, you could reasonably expect the current branding to be used throughout. Coaches were painted much more frequently than you might expect, which meant "old" branding might only persist for a very few years into the new regime. As always, photos of the time and place being modelled is crucial.

I'm sure things were a bit more lax on minor lines, on freight stock, on internal user stock, perhaps even yard shunters and the like. But the thing to remember with the GWR is that from at least as far back as Churchward, arguably even Dean, standardisation and corporate image were central -- much more so than with the others of the Big Four. While all that green and brass looks quaint to us today, the GWR was in many ways the most modern railway company in terms of management, standardisation and public relations.

Cheers, Nemo

Offline BoxTunnel

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 11:02:27 am »
If you don't already have it, be sure to buy this book...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Modellers-Guide-Great-Western-Railway/1857942043

Used paperback editions are less than 3 on Amazon, and the book is chock-full of the sort of information you're asking about.

As @NeilWhite says, there was some overlap, but you'd want to be careful. The GWR was aggressively modern in terms of branding, having a very strong corporate identity, and by the 1920s they were as media savvy as, say, modern Virgin Trains. If the public were going to see a given train on a well-used line, you could reasonably expect the current branding to be used throughout. Coaches were painted much more frequently than you might expect, which meant "old" branding might only persist for a very few years into the new regime. As always, photos of the time and place being modelled is crucial.

I'm sure things were a bit more lax on minor lines, on freight stock, on internal user stock, perhaps even yard shunters and the like. But the thing to remember with the GWR is that from at least as far back as Churchward, arguably even Dean, standardisation and corporate image were central -- much more so than with the others of the Big Four. While all that green and brass looks quaint to us today, the GWR was in many ways the most modern railway company in terms of management, standardisation and public relations.

Cheers, Nemo


Cheers Nemo, right now there is an Amazon minion scurrying to find this book and bung it in the post to me!

When I started thinking about model railways I really had no intention of being at all accurate, but the more I research, the more pernickety I get!

Graham.
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

Offline NeMo

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 03:24:29 pm »
When I started thinking about model railways I really had no intention of being at all accurate, but the more I research, the more pernickety I get!

I think this is a major attraction of the hobby for many. Once you start modelling a railway, you then need to find out about the right rolling stock and engines. Then the traffic they carried, or the men that designed and built them. Then you find out about the history of the railway companies, or the social history of the working men employed by them, or how they spurred the development of British cities, agriculture and heavy industry -- there's so much to learn about.

I think railway modellers as a group tend to have a particularly strong interest in the industrial and social history of Britain across the last two centuries. GCSE History isn't very strong in this regard; e.g., the average teenager tends to know more about 1920s-30s Germany than 1920s-30s Britain. I'm most interested in 1970s British Rail, but in finding out more about that period, I've become a lot more aware of Ted Heath, Harold Wilson, the Trade Unions, and Britain's perceived economic decline, which helps to pick apart the simplistic "winter of discontent" story the media tends to put forward when looking back at pre-Thatcher Britain.

Cheers, NeMo

Offline BoxTunnel

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 05:06:45 pm »
When I started thinking about model railways I really had no intention of being at all accurate, but the more I research, the more pernickety I get!

I think this is a major attraction of the hobby for many. Once you start modelling a railway, you then need to find out about the right rolling stock and engines. Then the traffic they carried, or the men that designed and built them. Then you find out about the history of the railway companies, or the social history of the working men employed by them, or how they spurred the development of British cities, agriculture and heavy industry -- there's so much to learn about.

I think railway modellers as a group tend to have a particularly strong interest in the industrial and social history of Britain across the last two centuries. GCSE History isn't very strong in this regard; e.g., the average teenager tends to know more about 1920s-30s Germany than 1920s-30s Britain. I'm most interested in 1970s British Rail, but in finding out more about that period, I've become a lot more aware of Ted Heath, Harold Wilson, the Trade Unions, and Britain's perceived economic decline, which helps to pick apart the simplistic "winter of discontent" story the media tends to put forward when looking back at pre-Thatcher Britain.

Cheers, NeMo

All I remember from history lessons is Mr Mole (real name) thinking the Diet of Wormz was the funniest joke ever!  I wanted to learn about battles and science but O Level History seemed to be all about religious schisms and crop rotation.  Yawn!

Graham, falling asleep at the mere mention of Mr Mole.
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

Offline railsquid

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 01:50:56 pm »
If you don't already have it, be sure to buy this book...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Modellers-Guide-Great-Western-Railway/1857942043

Used paperback editions are less than 3 on Amazon, and the book is chock-full of the sort of information you're asking about.

Also available from Abebooks, from which I've just procured an example and another book I was looking for.
"Eigatani Tetsudo" - Japanese and other trains (planning), featuring:

Online Mito

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Re: GWR Branding - I'm confused!
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 08:38:43 pm »
I've ordered one from Amazon. Due next week if all goes well.
You know you're getting older when your mind makes commitments your body can't meet.

 

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