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Author Topic: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale  (Read 2393 times)

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Offline grumbeast

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2017, 02:31:26 pm »
I have to agree about the Minitrix RAm is very poor, the cutout under the doors is particularly grating!.




Just in time for the weekend, the weather turned bad, so I used the Saturday to look through boxes for TEE trains. Of course the one I was especially looking for, Roco's DB TEE, was nowhere to be found :doh: - only other versions and add-on sets but not the one with the TEE power cars. ::) I hope grumbeast will help out with photos once his TEE is complete again. :)


Well as it happens my replacement power car set has arrived!!!! I haven't had time to test it yet but all looks ok.  The power cars themselve, one side it a bit rough paintwise, so I might swap my original bodyshells onto the working ones.

Its my little girls birthday today but will try and get some pictures of my TEE's later this week.  So glad I suggested this thread, there's already some great information here.

As well as the specialised multiple units it would be nice to also have pictures of the real and n scale locomotives that were used to pull TEE services in different countries

I have a very old Roco CC7100 that I believe may have been used on the TEE, but I'm not sure if they were still used on such services in 1965 when Le Mistrale became part of the TEE network, anyone know?

E10 on the Rheinpfeil



E103 for my Rhinegold




Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2017, 01:19:00 am »

I have a very old Roco CC7100 that I believe may have been used on the TEE, but I'm not sure if they were still used on such services in 1965 when Le Mistrale became part of the TEE network, anyone know?


not out of the question, but not common IMHO.

CC7100 hauled the pre 1956/pre-TEE TEE Mistral (no 'e') as it was better suited to the heavyweight stock.

When the 'inox' stainless steel came in the coaches were lighter and better suited to the B-B electrics, first BB9200, then BB9300 (hence the DelPrado static model with its Mistral headboard)  .


.
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Offline grumbeast

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2017, 09:50:26 am »
Thanks Gordon, I suspected you would know :)

So I could get away with using it at a stretch, but better off having an excuse to save and find a 9200

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 10:22:47 am »
Quote from: grumbeast
Well as it happens my replacement power car set has arrived!!!! I haven't had time to test it yet but all looks ok.  The power cars themselve, one side it a bit rough paintwise, so I might swap my original bodyshells onto the working ones.

I hope you are lucky and the colours of your new Roco matches the old one. There were different runs over the years (TEE Helvetia - Parsifal - Helvetia again - Rhein-Main), and the beige/ivory can differ quite a bit (the reds too but less noticeable).

Especially the Parsifal from the mid-90s has a "beiger" beige than the rest. As the train name is only displayed on one car of the add-on set, one can't be really sure if the colours match when buying the powered set.



Quote
As well as the specialised multiple units it would be nice to also have pictures of the real and n scale locomotives that were used to pull TEE services in different countries

In the book "TEE - La légende des Trans-Europ-Express" (Maurice Mertens, Jean-Pierre Malaspina) are lists of the diesel and electric locos that pulled TEEs and when and where they were used. I can add the loco classes later - but will do without the details provided by the authors.
As Gordon already wrote, the CC-7100 were replaced by the BB-9200 already by 1962.

Online weave

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2017, 02:38:43 pm »
Thanks Gordon, I suspected you would know :)

So I could get away with using it at a stretch, but better off having an excuse to save and find a 9200


Few pics here and think you can get the gist of the French,

http://passiondestrains.free.fr/dossier_plm/mistral.htm

Arnold did a BB 25200 in green if you model the coast. Arnold HN 2470.

Hope helps.

cheers weave  :beers:
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 03:01:28 pm by weave »

Online Carmont

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2017, 02:58:36 pm »
Thanks Gordon, I suspected you would know :)

So I could get away with using it at a stretch, but better off having an excuse to save and find a 9200


Few pics here and think you can get the gist of the French,

http://passiondestrains.free.fr/dossier_plm/mistral.htm

Arnold did a BB 25200 in green if you model the coast. Arnold 2470.

Hope helps.

cheers weave  :beers:


Some lovely images there, thank you for sharing that.

Offline GScaleBruce

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2017, 08:40:13 pm »
So, again a repost but all about French TEEs - specifically the Etendard and Aquitaine - so I hope of interest.

I travelled on L'Aquitaine (in 1981) and also used to see the reverse working, L'Etendard, when I was in Poitiers. On the day I travelled on L'Aquitaine, it appears that it wasn't hauled by a CC6500. I hope the attached pictures are of interest; first off, L'Aquitaine (first) and L'Etendard (second) in 1980:





And L'Aquitaine behind BB22278 when I travelled on it in 1981, arriving at Poitiers:



And on arrival in Paris:

Bruce
My layout - Steinheim am Main

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2017, 12:14:57 am »

As well as the specialised multiple units it would be nice to also have pictures of the real and n scale locomotives that were used to pull TEE services in different countries


The only digital or digitised pix of my own that are to hand just at the moment are as follows. All post TEE era but TEE (or TEE inspired in the case of SNCF) livery

The well known TEE inspired livery which got put on CC6500 and BB15000 because they ran on TEE routes at the time of their introduction into service.

post TEE era, Montauban circa 1984 with CC6511 on Grand Confort stock on a 2 class rapide - you can see the Corail stock at the back.




SBB CFF painted some Re4/4I and Re4/4II locos in TEE livery. Due to the traditional longevity of paint jobs on Swiss locos (why repaint if it is in acceptable condition used to be the Swiss mantra), they survived for years after the end of TEE in the TEE livery

Interlaken:



Lausanne:




Lastly, Again post TEE era but when the Catalan Talgo was a TEE it was hauled by the 67300 diesels





.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 12:26:14 am by Gordon »
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2017, 12:40:24 am »

In the book "TEE - La légende des Trans-Europ-Express" (Maurice Mertens, Jean-Pierre Malaspina) are lists of the diesel and electric locos that pulled TEEs and when and where they were used. I can add the loco classes later - but will do without the details provided by the authors.
As Gordon already wrote, the CC-7100 were replaced by the BB-9200 already by 1962.

As a fun exercise completely from memory, off the top of my head, and late at night here is a stab at a list for SNCF and DB:

SNCF
BB7200, BB9200 BB9300 CC6500 CC21000 CC40101 BB30000 BB15000 CC72000 BB67300 BB67400

DB
103, 110, 181, 218

SBB
Re4/4I Re4/4II
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Online weave

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2017, 07:50:12 am »
Morning all,

Bit more Catalan Talgo info.

Prob not 100% accurate but its a start.

As Gordon has said IBERTREN did the coaching stock. ARNOLD do the era III coaches now but probably ordinary Talgo not TEE, not sure (look the same to my untrained eye). ARNOLD HN 4171 (72) might be era IV but think they do era 111.

LOCOMOTIVES -

1969-71 BARCELONA - GENEVA entire route Talgo 3000 (became 353) ARNOLD HN 2073

1971-75 BARCELONA - PORTBOU/CERBERE (border) RENFE 276 electric STARTRAIN 60120

http://iberplace.com/22471/n-1160-startrain-60120-locomotive-276-talgo-renfe-300grams.jpg

 This was later replaced by RENFE 269. I've only seen it in pics on a TEE talgo in the original green livery in 1982. KATO 137-1310. There were lots of later liveries of this loco but don't think they pulled the TEE.

1971-75 CERBERE - GENEVA SNCF BB 67400 MINITRIX

1975-80 The route from Avignon to Geneva was changed to go via Lyon instead of Chambery (non electrified) so the SNCF 9300 pulled the train from Narbonne - Geneva.

1980-end In 1980 the track from Narbonne to the Spanish border was electrified and the BB 9300 was replaced with a BB 7200 FLEISCHMANN 7362.

As said prob not 100% accurate but its start.

Hope helps.

Cheers weave  :beers:







« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:52:28 am by weave »

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2017, 08:04:49 am »
List from "TEE - La légende des Trans-Europ-Express" (Maurice Mertens, Jean-Pierre Malaspina) which gives additional information of the trains and years of service.
 

Electrics (multi-system electrics in 2nd line) - Diesels italic

DB
E03/103.0/1 - E10/110 - 111 - E10.12/112
E310/181.0 - 181.2 - E410/184
210 - 218 - V200/220 - 221

DSB
MX 1000 - MY 1100 - MZ 1200

FS
E444 - E632 - E633 - E646 - E656

NS
1100 - 1200 - 1300 - 1600

ÖBB
1010 - 1042.500 - 1044 - 4061 (=1046)

RENFE
269 - 7600/276
3000 T

SBB-CFF-FFS
Ae 6/6 - Re 4/4 I-II-III-IV - Re 6/6

SNCB
22 - 23 - 25 - 26
12 - 150/15 - 160/16 - 18 - 25.5
201/51 - 202/52 - 204/54 - 205/55 - 62

SNCF
CC-6500 - BB-7200 - BB-9200 - BB-9300 - BB-15000 - BB-16000
BB-20200 - BB-21000 - BB-22200 - BB-25200 - BB-25500 - BB-26000/30000 - CC-40100
BB-66400 - BB-67000 - BB-67400 - CC-72000



« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:07:38 am by Hiawatha »

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2017, 09:41:05 am »
Quote from: weave
As Gordon has said IBERTREN did the coaching stock. ARNOLD do the era III coaches now but probably ordinary Talgo not TEE, not sure (look the same to my untrained eye). ARNOLD HN 4171 (72) might be era IV but think they do era 111.

The Ibertren and Arnold Talgos are not models of the same prototype. The Arnold is a Talgo III, the Ibertren is the Talgo III RD (Ruedas Desplazables) adjustable-gauge version for the TEE. They main optical difference are the generator/baggage cars at the train ends on the RD (the Arnold set has coaches as end cars).
The Ibertren 8-car set 280 includes three 2nd class coaches although the end cars are lettered with Trans Europ Express. But the class number is printed very small, and additional 1st-class 2-car sets were available as no. 282.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2017, 01:30:41 pm »
The Hobbytrain "Gottardo" has one weak spot which is the sprung power collectors between the cars. You only need one to lose contact to disable the train lighting, and power to the motored car.

Yes, I have two set of these - TEE and Grey Mouse versions.   both of the older design with these troublesome connections.

I did consider some 2-way JSTs and got as far as getting some component in, but recently I totally stripped down the Grey Mouse and made a few adjustments:

1) the little vertical rods that the coupling connection springs touch have all been properly soldered to the copper power strips in each coach. 

2) the "spring" parts of the connectors have all been re-straightened and the two parts of each connector glued together to prevent the springs sliding out of place. I experimented with various shapes of bend in the ends of the springs, coming to the conclusion that two parallel lines seemed to work best to maintain contact on curves.

3) I seem to remember I also modified the wiring of the directional lighting and the change-over switches in the driving-ends, so that they weren't relying on the entire set passing power all the way through. Each half-set is now independently capable of feeding the power car in the middle.

Since the adjustments the Mouse has been much more reliable. 

I need to go back and do the same to the TEE set when I have time - it's one of my favourites being the actual example I used to lust after in a little model shop's counter display back in the mid 80s  (I bought it  several years later from another source as a 2nd hand item).
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 11:42:51 pm »

The Ibertren and Arnold Talgos are not models of the same prototype. The Arnold is a Talgo III, the Ibertren is the Talgo III RD (Ruedas Desplazables) adjustable-gauge version for the TEE. They main optical difference are the generator/baggage cars at the train ends on the RD (the Arnold set has coaches as end cars).
The Ibertren 8-car set 280 includes three 2nd class coaches although the end cars are lettered with Trans Europ Express. But the class number is printed very small, and additional 1st-class 2-car sets were available as no. 282.

That's why I have stuck with the Ibertren model, plus it is a perfectly acceptable model anyway, can be split and joined to create different length sets (as happened on the real train), not overly inaccurate scale-wise (it came just late enough in the 'early' history of Ibertren to be a decent model).

Also not usually too expensive second hand (there used to be quite a few around on show s/h stalls  but I confess i haven't seen one for sale recently in the UK

.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 12:14:32 am by Gordon »
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2017, 12:11:41 am »
List from "TEE - La légende des Trans-Europ-Express" (Maurice Mertens, Jean-Pierre Malaspina) which gives additional information of the trains and years of service.
 

Electrics (multi-system electrics in 2nd line) - Diesels italic

DB
E03/103.0/1 - E10/110 - 111 - E10.12/112
E310/181.0 - 181.2 - E410/184
210 - 218 - V200/220 - 221

DSB
MX 1000 - MY 1100 - MZ 1200

FS
E444 - E632 - E633 - E646 - E656

NS
1100 - 1200 - 1300 - 1600

ÖBB
1010 - 1042.500 - 1044 - 4061 (=1046)

RENFE
269 - 7600/276
3000 T

SBB-CFF-FFS
Ae 6/6 - Re 4/4 I-II-III-IV - Re 6/6

SNCB
22 - 23 - 25 - 26
12 - 150/15 - 160/16 - 18 - 25.5
201/51 - 202/52 - 204/54 - 205/55 - 62

SNCF
CC-6500 - BB-7200 - BB-9200 - BB-9300 - BB-15000 - BB-16000
BB-20200 - BB-21000 - BB-22200 - BB-25200 - BB-25500 - BB-26000/30000 - CC-40100
BB-66400 - BB-67000 - BB-67400 - CC-72000

Interesting to compare this with my 'late night recollection'. I could have guessed at the locos used in countries other than the SNCF and DB that I did, as it is really seems to be essentially a list of  all the common main line classes in the TEE era in each country.

I am sceptical about some of the locos cited in the list. Some look unlikely to me, particularly in regular booked service. Hiawatha, I Haven't got the book so would be interested in what the authors claim for some of the locos. If at all some locos in the list would have hauled TEEs for short distances across border zones - maybe that's it?

For example, I can't think why a small mixed traffic diesel like the SNCF 66000 would have been booked to haul a TEE unless it was for example the short  Tourcoing - Lille leg of some TEEs. 

Equally in Switzerland I don't recall Ae6/6 or Re6/6 used on TEE on a day to day basis, so my guess is that these might have worked the Rheingold round the Basel Bad Bf - Basel SBB link, or perhaps on the Lemano in the case of Re6/6?
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
French Railways Consultant
European railway expert

First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

 

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