Model Railway Hobby Costs

[railsquid]

Expensive as it may seem to us, I suspect that most of us have stock boxes that a 1960s modeller would simply gape at.

Having recently re-entered the hobby after 25 years I still see things from a 1980's OO perspective, and still gape at much of the N gauge stuff I've acquired. I'm currently constructing my layout and using some older locos to test the track as they're quite good at finding problems. Anyway one of them is a Lima 86 (which I'm quite fond of, but then I'm a bit strange ) - having kind of gotten used to that, the other day I dug out a Dapol 86 and it's a world apart - like I time travelled to the future, but the future is now.

[Irish Padre]

_{Do however note that while the Kato/Tomix range of popular trains are relatively cheap (albeit with limited or no DCC compatibility, which will add direct or indirect expense to anyone wanting to run them on DCC), if you want to run specific models particular to various private lines, it can get a whole lot more expensive.}



Fair point railsquid!! I did find the Hankyu and Odakyu sets quite pricy, and
I'll probably have to wait a while for a C62.....But I do find that I can acquire some fantastic rolling stock for low prices - an 8 car Seibu 101 EMU for less than £100, box vans for under £4 each....

[Webbo]

Even though it's likely that the size of the market is a contributor to price disparity, but I suspect a couple of other reasons are that the UK market seems to operate as a duopoly with competition on prices not what it might be. Also, even online businesses need to employ people and the UK I suspect has higher labour costs due to higher minimum wages and the requirement to pay for overheads such as health, pensions, and welfare through VAT, income tax, and company tax that the US operations are less subject to. In effect, some of the extra price we pay for UK locos and rolling stock is attributable to our living in social democracies.

Webbo

Hi Webbo,

You're right about labour costs - it was to keep prices low that everyone moved their production to China in the 1990s.  Now the Chinese workers are demanding the same kind of employment conditions and living standards we enjoy their labour costs are increasing drastically, which is why model costs are suddenly rising.

Their big problem is retention of labour - why would someone work in a model train factory for a low wage when they could go down the road and work making iPads or Android phones in a cleaner, more modern factory for twice the money?

And the even bigger problem is holding onto specialist staff - the ones you've spent money training in CAD design, or toolmaking, or product and project management.  I am told it's not unusual for a skilled engineer to receive a text message offering a much higher salary, go out on his lunchbreak and not return.

For many years the Chinese factories were producing models at a price that was, really, too cheap.  That's why arguably the best one - Sanda Kan - went bust.

cheers

Ben A.

I suspect, Ben, that the money paid to the Chinese manufacturer is only a fraction of the retail cost of our locos and rolling stock and could not account for the relatively high cost of British outline compared to American. Nowadays, most US outline derives from Chinese manufacturers as well. It would be interesting to know who actually gets the money when we buy a loco or item of rolling stock.

Webbo

[JasonBz]

The money goes to the Manufacturer, Shipping, Retailer.
I dont think there is any large profit been siphoned off at any stage of the journey - As they say, the best way to get a small fortune in Model Railways is to start with a large one

[steve836]

I appreciate that a lot of work goes into producing a new wagon, and it may be that around £20 for a 4-wheel wagon like the mermaid is appropriate in those terms, but for someone who wants to run a realistic length train of around 40 wagons it comes to £800 which is a lot of money, then when you add a brake van and loco you are looking at nearly £1000 for one train.

Just like the surety of death and taxes, one day £1000 for a train will be cheap.

Webbo

That may well be true, but I for one am not likely to live long enough to see it and, in any case we are talking about now. My weekly government pension is about £165 per week which means I would have to save for 6 weeks, even if I had no other expenses and that is far from being the case.

[gc4946]

Model wise, to put things into perspective - I've checked Farish's RRP of 371-329 Class 150/2 150247 Sprinter (weathered) which I've been waiting for a release date some time because I don't yet own a Provincial-liveried model.

On Farish's website £154.95  (before retailer discount)

Revolution Trains' guide price for the class 321 without sound: £160

Don't want to make it a promotion for Revolution Trains but even their guide price for a first batch run 4-car unit (subject to sufficient expressions of interest) sounds good value against a second batch run 2-car Sprinter!

Some of us have fixed incomes so price (and value) become more important factors in what we spend on hobbies and other interests.

[Ben A]

Hi all,

Webbo - As has been said, there are the actual costs of production and shipping, then there is the profit margin for factory, UK manufacturer and retailer.  Don't forget tax aswell, which adds at least 20% into all this.

As has been said, I am not aware that anyone is making a lot of money in model railways.  People seem convinced someone, somewhere is ripping them off.  But the evidence points in the other direction: 

Retail outlets are closing down and there are barely any in prime locations such as high streets or shopping malls because margins are tight.  Their throats are, in effect, being cut by the internet and the box-shifters.  People seem to prefer to spend £95 + £4 postage on a model from Liverpool than £100 in their local shop. 

Manufacturers here are struggling to get the Chinese to produce models.  This is because their margins on our models are too tight - bigger and more profitable orders jump the queue. 

And factories in China (example previously given) have gone bust because they weren't charging enough money.

The relative cost of British to US models is a combination of vastly higher production runs (tooling and assembly line set up costs spread more thinly) and a different tax regime as already explained.

Steve:  I understand that you can't afford that £1000 train in your example; I couldn't either.  But have you considered selective compression?  For example, modern coal trains usually comprise 17-21 bogie hoppers.  I don't want to buy this many and probably wouldn't have room for them if I did.  So I run a coal train of 12-14 hoppers which still looks impressive, but costs less and uses less space.  It isn't exactly prototypical but I'd rather run an approximation and add a little imagination than run no coal train at all.

cheers

Ben A.

[steve836]

Hi all,

W
Steve:  I understand that you can't afford that £1000 train in your example; I couldn't either.  But have you considered selective compression?  For example, modern coal trains usually comprise 17-21 bogie hoppers.  I don't want to buy this many and probably wouldn't have room for them if I did.  So I run a coal train of 12-14 hoppers which still looks impressive, but costs less and uses less space.  It isn't exactly prototypical but I'd rather run an approximation and add a little imagination than run no coal train at all.

cheers

Ben A.

A garret or 9f would haul 90 wagons so a train of 40 is already compressed

[Ben A]

Hi Steve,

I have no idea how many 4-wheel wagons a steam loco could haul, I was just considering your OP which stated that 40 wagons was, for you, realistic.

You may decide 20 wagons is so unrealistic as to be not worth bothering with - fair enough. All I'm saying is that for most of us there will be a balance between what's affordable and what's acceptable if we "truncate realism!"

cheers

Ben A.

[MikeDunn]

9f would haul 90 wagons so a train of 40 is already compressed

Hardly; the 9Fs based @ Tyne Dock pulled 8 (later 9) wagons ... so a small number like this is quite prototypical ...

[NeMo]

Their throats are, in effect, being cut by the internet and the box-shifters.  People seem to prefer to spend £95 + £4 postage on a model from Liverpool than £100 in their local shop.

Ben, while you make a valid point, I think you oversimplify why Hattons, Rails and MRD are so successful whereas the small, "local", shops aren't.

The big box shifters aren't just some few percent cheaper (we'll quibble over how much another time) but also able to offer a much wider range of current models. So one factor between choosing to mail order from Hattons via visiting a local model shop is that the model you want is much more likely to be available and in your hands within a day or two. They're also able to offer periodic bargains and sales, which may not make a lot of money, but can encourage other purchases, and even small profits are better than no profit at all, especially when stock is sitting on a shelf going out of fashion and potentially losing value. It may well be small stores offer bargains and sales too, but if they don't advertise online, few people will know about them.

I think we also do the likes of Hattons a disservice by painting them as somehow the villains of the piece. My two local shops are Transport Treasures and Junction 20 Models. One has a rudimentary website, while the other doesn't have a website at all. Both clearly view the Internet as a threat, not an opportunity, and neither makes any effort to attract me to visit them in the near future. Transport Treasures is actually pretty good if you're a 00 modeller given its size, and even though it doesn't have a lot of N, there are enough kits and track pieces to get you started. I simply have no idea how Junction 20 Models works! The guy who works there is nice enough and apparently does 00 repairs on a regular basis, and the turnover of used 00 also seems to be substantial, but even so, it's always very quiet whenever I've visited. Regardless, because neither has a website, visiting them is a lottery that on previous experience has usually been a wasted trip. That uncertainty is a disincentive for me to visit again.

It is possible for small shops to thrive. But I think justing sitting on the High Street and waiting for customers to turn up is unrealistic. Whether it's regular appearances at hobby exhibitions, internet sales, exclusive models, or specialising in things like wagon kits or scenics, these small stores really do need a unique selling point if they're going to make a profit. The fact that so many fail to be ambitious is not the fault of those stores like Hattons that were ambitious and took advantage of the internet -- and let's not forget Hattons, Rails and MRD were small, local, family-owned stores at one time! (May still be, for all I know.)

Cheers, NeMo

[railsquid]

Hattons was pretty big even before the internet - by the time my pocket money (or paper round money) had expanded enough to buy more than the occasional wagon or coach, my local model shop (actually a bizarre model shop/photo studio combination) had vanished and for any major purchases I had to travel into Birmingham where there was a Beatties located directly above the station, or pop a cheque in an envelope to one of the full-page advertisers in Railway Modeller who managed to pack most of their inventory in small print into A4 size. For whatever reason I settled on Hattons and was pleased to rediscover them recently (though in my defence the only model shop in Japan specializing in British trains deals mainly in Orribly Oversized, and after chatting with the proprietor it turns out they source most of their stuff from Liverpool...).

[Newportnobby]

9f would haul 90 wagons so a train of 40 is already compressed

Hardly; the 9Fs based @ Tyne Dock pulled 8 (later 9) wagons ... so a small number like this is quite prototypical ...

Not really relevant to Steve's argument, Mike, as you are quoting the Consett ore trains where the wagons carried vastly greater tonnage than the wagons Steve is referring to thereby reducing, of necessity, the number of wagons in the train.

[steve836]

Yes - depends on your prototype. I'm modelling the rooftop line. An 8F was allowed 42 wagons beyond Rowsley before a banker was needed so more would be normal between Ambergate and there. I think the limit beyond Rowsley was 60 for a 9F or Garrett. Banking was the norm from Rowsley to Millers Dale which would indicate that train lengths were in excess of these numbers.

[Chris Morris]

Re loco costs - I am not involved in the industry but I would expect that repaying the investment in tooling is a significant part of the cost of a loco. Tooling costs for a new loco will probably be in the hundreds of thousands. So sales volumes will have quite a big effect on price.

Re wagon costs - I don't think trains have to be scale length to look right. For instance a 7 or 8 coach train problaly looks more the part on most layouts than a proper length 11 coach train. I find a 20 wagon freight train looks ok.

I recently wanted a clay train of about 20 wagons. Whilst the Kernow clay wagons were tempting I decided against this route purely on cost. 20 peco 5 plank wagons were kits purchased from Hattons at £3.00 each. I painted and assembled them and then used thin cloth, painted black then thin white to represent clay dust, to make tarpaulin covers. So I have a nice long goods train for just over £70 including the brake van. And because I made them myself they are unique and give me more pleasure. You don't always have to spend a fortune.