I'm looking to get a rake of coaches suitable for western region around the 1962 year and was wondering if the following would be suitable.
All mk1s bsk maroon ck choc/cream ck maroon sk maroon bg choc/cream
I thought about putting an Hawksworth into the mix but I've only been able to find them in gwr or crimson/cream. I only want a five or six rake max. Suggestions please as to what to keep in and what to replace with something else. :hmmm:
There is nothing wrong with your rake but there are many possible variations to consider. eg BCK/SK instead of BSK/CK, FK/SK not CK/CK, possibly only one CK. It really depends what purpose the set serves, self contained or a portion detached from a longer rake.
Dodger
If the train is supposed to be a longer distance service you might want to include a catering vehicle of some sort, probably arranged near the first class accommodation. I have seen photos from as late as 1964 (I think) where the train included one Choc/Cream and one Crimson/Cream among the maroon coaches.
Something like; BSK, SK, RU, CK, BSK
Or as a six-coach train; BSK, SK, SK, RU, FK, BSK (or substitute BCK or BG)
In trains like those I would go for 4/5 coaches in maroon with 1 in either Crimson/Cream or Choc/Cream or 4/6 in maroon and one each of Crimson/Cream and Choc/Cream.
The above is based on what I think is plausible based on the bits of research I've done. I'm sure if they're wrong someone will correct me.
On the real railway Hawksworth and Collett coaches had slightly different gangways and needed an adapter plate to connect with BR Mk1 stock. You would generally see the older coaches arranged together at one end of the train so you could have a Hawksworth BSK in Crimson/Cream at one end of the train, possibly coupled to a Hawksworth SK and the rest of the train made up of BR Mk1 coaches.
The only problem I have with the bck is finding one new that isn't weathered as one of my first idea's was bck sk sk ck bg. Finding the right stock is a pita. I suppose It could he either self contained or a detached portion as the layout will just be western region themed and not based on a particular area I just wanted to throw a passenger train into the mix for some additional interest among the freight trains. I've already got two mk1 BGs that's why I included one in the rake but I suppose I could use them in a parcels train instead to add even more variety. I think this idea is going to start getting expensive.
I like the idea of putting a RU or RMB into It. I had planned on having two choc/cream coaches and the rest maroon. I'll start seeing what's available again and see what I can come up with. Think I'll just stick with mk1s to make life easier.
OK here's what I've come up with based on what I can find available.
BSK maroon SK maroon CK choc/cream RMB maroon CK maroon BSK choc/cream. Or I could substitute the CK for a SK in choc cream I could also swap a BSK for a BCK. I may want to run this lot behind a class 52 now and then or should I rethink the whole thing.
Quote from: Big bad John on December 09, 2016, 05:28:14 PM
OK here's what I've come up with based on what I can find available.
BSK maroon SK maroon CK choc/cream RMB maroon CK maroon BSK choc/cream. Or I could substitute the CK for a SK in choc cream I could also swap a BSK for a BCK. I may want to run this lot behind a class 52 now and then or should I rethink the whole thing.
That sounds pretty good to me. I agree it can be difficult to find BR Mk1 coaches, especially in BR Maroon (and even more if you want Western Region running numbers). I'm lucky that I have a good collection of coaches now, but it took a while to find some of the coaches.
:thankyousign:
After spending most of last night and today trawling online shops and trying to match different combinations I'm now happy to go with the above six carriage combo and even then I'll need to order from at least two shops. I'd better get some ice ready to cool my debit card down. :o
The relatively small numbers of Choc & Cream coaches were intended for and generally kept for specific high profile trains. While it was not unknown for them to be used on other services and in mixed livery rakes, it was the exception rather than the rule.
It would be more common to see an odd maroon coach substituted in an otherwise Choc & Cream train than the other way round
john lambert is correct re the gangways - GWR and LMS coaches has 'British Standard' Gangways whereas BR MK1s and most LNER stock built after c 1930 has 'Pulman' Gangways, and an adapter plate was required to join the two, so if the train included vehicles with both types whenever possible it would be marshalled with all of one type together so less adaptors were needed...
If it's of any help to you I have 2 x Farish 0694 Choc/cream BCKs and 1 x Farish 0754 Choc/cream Buffet RMB I could sell.
Drop me a PM if interested.
After the above two posts I may be going down the choc cream route with a couple of maroon's thrown in because when I've been checking online again I noticed that some of the mk1s were either m or e region. I may bring in rule one and get one of each colour :laugh3:
From page 21 onwards of this site you can match running numbers by Farish reference number. Shame it's not a spreadsheet so you can use filters but it's still very useful.............
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/farish_products_by_item_no_rev5.pdf (http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/farish_products_by_item_no_rev5.pdf)
Other than as a detached portion running short distances, it would have been very unusual to have a restaurant car or a first class only carriage in a WR formation of only five or six coaches. First class accommodation would likely be limited to a BCK or CK.
OK then this is how it's beginning to look now BCK SK SK RMB FK BCK I'll just pretend that this portion is going to Wolverhampton and the other half has gone to Worcester. I could always extend the train but I don't know how it would look on a 3 metres long layout with curves at each end and I won't know that until I start building my next layout in January.
Thanks for all the advice I'm now beginning to think that any combination of liveries could have been possible in the early sixties.
Here are some photos to inspire you.
My green Class 52 on a train of Chocolate and Cream coaches.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/fourwheelsteer/Train%20and%20model%20rail%20stuff/100_5058_zpsd87b52c9.jpg) (http://s79.photobucket.com/user/fourwheelsteer/media/Train%20and%20model%20rail%20stuff/100_5058_zpsd87b52c9.jpg.html)
Real Western Region down express to Wolverhampton.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2232.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2232.htm)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2209.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb2209.htm)
1964 Steam hauled with a very rough-looking loco.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbh2325.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbh2325.htm)
Named express in 1962 with a mix of Choc/Cream and Maroon stock
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwro2305.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwro2305.htm)
Black and white shot of Western
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrag2441.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrag2441.htm)
Quote from: newportnobby on December 09, 2016, 08:52:17 PM
From page 21 onwards of this site you can match running numbers by Farish reference number.
FWIW I was cataloguing my coaches last night, including writing down the running number (mainly so I can match the coach via the catalogue number to the correct box should I ever need to), anyway I noticed for my maroon and blue/grey coaches I've got a hopeless mix of regions... but as I had to take off my glasses and squint closely at the number to read it (and my eyesight isn't all that bad) I don't think I will lose much sleep over the mix.
Maybe not exactly what you had in mind but if you are looking for something a bit different many branch lines of that era were still running ex GWR B-Sets with diesel haulage and one or two even employed an 03 as the power unit! Not all branch lines had DMUs when steam vanished.
Thanks johnlambert those photos are really interesting as in that it was still possible to see crimson and cream coaches on an express in 1962 at least. I had previously understood that they would have all gone by then. My understanding that the chocolate cream rake's would have been split up by 1962 seems to be true going by the photos of the cornishman with more maroon than crimson and cream coaches. So basically I could have a good old 10p mix up and It wouldn't be out of place. I had thought a 52 would be pushing it a bit for then but again the photographs don't lie. Now I can build up a collection of coaching stock and be able to mix and match to my heart's content. A 3 car set of suburbans may be acquired after crimbo to add even more variety.
:thankyousign:
That's interesting western princess. I've got a dapol get b set I was going to sell but I may look into converting It to br if it's not too difficult.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 10, 2016, 07:14:29 AM
Maybe not exactly what you had in mind but if you are looking for something a bit different many branch lines of that era were still running ex GWR B-Sets with diesel haulage and one or two even employed an 03 as the power unit! Not all branch lines had DMUs when steam vanished.
Have you any examples of branch lines using 03's as it could provide an extra dimension for my railway. Apart from the Upwell tramway I have only managed to find examples of last minute substitutions for failures or on railtours.
Dodger
Quote from: Big bad John on December 10, 2016, 07:46:28 AM
Thanks johnlambert those photos are really interesting as in that it was still possible to see crimson and cream coaches on an express in 1962 at least. I had previously understood that they would have all gone by then. My understanding that the chocolate cream rake's would have been split up by 1962 seems to be true going by the photos of the cornishman with more maroon than crimson and cream coaches. So basically I could have a good old 10p mix up and It wouldn't be out of place. I had thought a 52 would be pushing it a bit for then but again the photographs don't lie. Now I can build up a collection of coaching stock and be able to mix and match to my heart's content. A 3 car set of suburbans may be acquired after crimbo to add even more variety.
:thankyousign:
Thanks Big bad John. I'm a firm believer that there's no substitute for looking at photos of real trains as a guide for your models.
The usual formation for BR Suburban coaches was Second, Brake Second and Composite, with extra coaches added for peak time services. You can see the first two coaches in this picture.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrl1439.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrl1439.htm)
But you could get some odd formations as in the picture below (Full brake, Auto Coach and mainline brake coach (possibly a Mk1 BCK). If I'd seen that on a model without seeing the photo I'd have assumed someone was having a laugh.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2121.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls2121.htm)
Quotemany branch lines of that era were still running ex GWR B-Sets with diesel haulage
Surely not "many" - the WR did not have a surplus of diesel locos in 1962 and most branch services would have gone straight from steam to DMUs. But I'd love to see a pic if you have one.
Quote from: johnlambert on December 10, 2016, 08:36:05 AM
The usual formation for BR Suburban coaches was Second, Brake Second and Composite, with extra coaches added for peak time services. You can see the first two coaches in this picture.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrl1439.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrl1439.htm)
Oh excellent, among my very random acquisitions are a couple of maroon Mk1 suburbans, looks like I can use them at the lower end of the time dial.
The photo of 6858 possibly raises a question or two; the loco headcode is class G 'light engine or engine with one or two brakevans attached'. Could this be an empty stock train (possibly with incorrect headcode?)?
The East Suffolk line had daily 'stock trains' in each direction in which any combination of coaching stock or vacuum braked wagons could run; presumably the coaching stock was being taken to balance a previous working, needed repairs, or was needed to for a new working.
Could this photo be similar?
Also, if you need to renumber stock to WR rather than the other regions, it is easy to do with transfers from at least a couple of sources. I think that your latest proposal has too much first class accommodation; I would substitute a BSK for one of the BCK. ( I can't find the original, but I think BCK were originally built for use as though coaches on multiple portion trains, eg the ACE).
Martyn
Quote from: dodger on December 10, 2016, 08:25:58 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 10, 2016, 07:14:29 AM
Maybe not exactly what you had in mind but if you are looking for something a bit different many branch lines of that era were still running ex GWR B-Sets with diesel haulage and one or two even employed an 03 as the power unit! Not all branch lines had DMUs when steam vanished.
Have you any examples of branch lines using 03's as it could provide an extra dimension for my railway. Apart from the Upwell tramway I have only managed to find examples of last minute substitutions for failures or on railtours.
Dodger
Hello Dodger, two examples come to mind. See the lower photo on this piece from the Highworth Historical Society and the other was one in South Wales, the Pembrey and Burry Port line which used 03s but whether with B Sets I can't be sure.
But there is a prototype example... and where its happened once...
http://www.highworthhistoricalsociety.co.uk/highworth-archives/highworth-light-railway.html (http://www.highworthhistoricalsociety.co.uk/highworth-archives/highworth-light-railway.html)
Also some branch lines in Cornwall (the Helston Branch, for example) used D63XX haulage with traditional GWR branch line trains for a few months in the late 1950s/early 1960s until DMUs took over.
Martyn I think I can get transfers from the ngs shop but there seems to be loads of different sheets I wouldn't have a clue what to order. How would you remove the old transfers without doing any damage to the paint work. As for the coaches I may well take your advice or change the FK for a CK. I intend to build up a surplus stock of various coaches and liveries so that I can swap and change now I know coach type is more important than colour.
Sorry, my previous post was made in haste - I should have said too that the 03s (nicknamed 'Sugar Puffs' on the Highworth line as a very similar loco type were pictured on boxes of the breakfast cereal at that time) took over the workings in 1960 and powered the passenger service until closure of the route.
Quote from: Big bad John on December 09, 2016, 01:55:08 PM
I'm looking to get a rake of coaches suitable for western region around the 1962 year and was wondering if the following would be suitable.
All mk1s bsk maroon ck choc/cream ck maroon sk maroon bg choc/cream
I thought about putting an Hawksworth into the mix but I've only been able to find them in gwr or crimson/cream. I only want a five or six rake max. Suggestions please as to what to keep in and what to replace with something else. :hmmm:
The chocolate and cream Mark 1 stock was only maintained in small volumes and in theory for the named trains. In fact it's most useful for modelling railtours post BR era. Maroon and maybe some shabby Crimson/Cream would be in keeping.
The suburbans didn't last very long in their original form, most of them being converted into car flats.
Catering stock would have been unusual in short trains. Until the modern era even the long distance trains that split would often drop the dining car, for example the trains into Cornwall used to drop the heavy dining car and some coaches at Plymouth. That's one reason they had to lengthen all the platforms - keeping fixed formations made Cornish trains much longer than in the past.
Hawksworth's would have been unusual by then and out of favour. In fact for the main London to Penzance route I would imagine you'd be more likely to have seen a refurbished Gresley buffet than a GWR coach. There was a very concerted effort to get rid of the old coaches.
I've never seen any pictures of B sets being diesel hauled except for weird cases and certainly if you look at the autocoach services they went straight to DMU, usually with an improved timetable and happier customers.. The BP&GV never used B sets. In fact if you stuck a B set down the BP&GV line it would have gotten stuck under the bridges. All the BP&GV passenger stock was either custom, or GWR metro-gauge four wheel stock some of which lasted until the early 1950s when the passenger service was removed. The BP&GV did have some spectacular and unique trains - the low bridges required shunters with cut down roofs, and brake vans with the stove pipe lower. Because of regular flooding of the lower part of the line (which was originally a canal) BR decided to use mechanical transmission locomotives for the job, even though 03's were underpowered. As a result rakes of HAA hoppers would travel the line at little over walking pace with 2 or 3 class 03 shunters providing motive power.
There were certainly groups of lines that were impassable to anything larger than a shunter, but except for the Highworth works trains (not public passenger services strictly) the others I think all simply lost passenger service before that point or never had it.
Alan
Quote from: EtchedPixels on December 10, 2016, 01:51:38 PM
There were certainly groups of lines that were impassable to anything larger than a shunter, but except for the Highworth works trains (not public passenger services strictly) the others I think all simply lost passenger service before that point or never had it.
Alan
Strictly speaking, you're right of course, Alan, but I think that if it happened on the prototype somewhere in the Region then there can be no serious bar to it happening on my/our routes, unless we are building and operating a specific section of line as a museum quality piece of course.
My point is not that 03 were used with B Sets on workmen's trains but that B Sets and 03s have historically worked in real life carrying passengers and therefore would not be out of place as a working on a fictitious branch line of the kind some 99 in every 100 of us tend to model.
Quote from: longbow on December 10, 2016, 08:40:38 AM
Quotemany branch lines of that era were still running ex GWR B-Sets with diesel haulage
Surely not "many" - the WR did not have a surplus of diesel locos in 1962 and most branch services would have gone straight from steam to DMUs. But I'd love to see a pic if you have one.
The Highworth branch used a local Class 03 (as they became) to haul a BR livery B Set on the Workmen's trains to / from Swindon Works. (I have a scanned picture.)
In the early 1960s (I think 1962?), Stanley Raymond was appointed WR General Manager with instructions to break up the WR's Chocolate and Cream named express rakes and enforce the use of regular BR maroon stock. Thereafter mixed livery rakes were common. As John has written, around 1962 you could see BR Crimson & Cream, BR WR Chocolate & Cream, and BR Lined Maroon coaches all in the same mainline train. Hawksworth design coaches were still around in BR Lined Maroon, especially on the Cambrian, judging by photos. Collett design coaches, in BR Lined Maroon, were getting quite rare. The WR also used BR Lined Maroon Stanier and Gresley design coaches as "strengtheners", (I have photos.). So, almost anything goes!
Hawksworth and Colletts in use on WR:
A mixture of Hawksworth and various Collett types within the same train was common. The different designs were freely mixed up and regarded as interchangeable. A four-car train could be BSK/SK/CK/BSK of whichever coach you fancy. BCK
+SK+BSK is another possibility. Or even a Class 22 with a single Collett BCK.
WR (ex-GWR) Carriage Formations
BCK, BSK
BSK, CK, BSK
BSK, SK, BCK
BSK, SK, CK, SK, BSK
BSK, SK, CK, BSK
BSK, SK, CK, BCK
Plus various longer formations such as:
BCK, 6 SK, BCK
BCK, 4 SK, BCK, BG
BCK, 2 SK, 2 CK, 2 SK, BSK
BSK, 3 SK, 2 CK, 3 SK, BSK
These were all listed as GWR stock but could be any combination of Collett and Hawksworth stock.
I really love the variation in coaching stock that is available now in N. Obviously as a Southern modeller predominantly, I have almost sufficient Bullieds and Maunsells, but as far as visiting WR trains go, I've only got a rake of Chocolate and Cream Mk 1s (diverted south / rule 1) and a rake of Maroon Colletts.
I have started wondering about the longevity of my rake of Dapol Collett coaches in Maroon livery, so a few questions to the cognoscenti out there.
1. How long did the Collett coaches made by Dapol last in revenue earning service? Did they even make it into maroon?
2. What would they have been seen behind in the late 1950s-1960s. Manors or Halls? 51xx/61xx big prairies?
I'm trying to figure what could be justified on a run down to Southampton (say) behind a Reading based Manor or Hall, for example, in the late 50s-60s. Did the big prairies make it any further south than Basingstoke? e.g. down the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line?
This is your chance to persuade me to buy a copper chimneyed kettle, or flog my Collett coaches and get more Maunsells!
Thanks in advance
Bob
The Collett design coaches certainly lasted long enough to carry BR Lined Maroon livery, Bob. I think they lasted in passenger service to around 1964. The later the year the more likely they would be used in secondary services rather than mainline ones. They tended to be mixed with Hawksworth design coaches in the same livery.
BR WR Chocolate and Cream stock might appear on a Summer Saturday service when weekday passenger rakes were used.
I don't think the Large Prairies ever made it to Southampton. I'm not an expert on the DNS but I think a 43XX would be the most likely motive power.
I'm certainly hoping the Colletts lasted into the early 60s as I run mine behind my Ixion Manor and my Hymeks on cross country services (fingers crossed smiley) @Karhedron (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207)
Class 22s on branch passenger workings from "hydraulics in the West" by David Cable
Exe Valley branch 28/9/63
Kings ridge branch 23/6/62
Bodmin branch April 63 & April 62
Newquay branch 4/10/61
Chacewater branch - date unknown and a rare sight
Falmouth branch June 63
Helton branch - Aug 62
Torrington - March 65
Padstow - July 66
Some of these have what looks like old non corridor stock (maybe a B set) and some with mk1s. It does show that the West Country branches did see class 22s on branch passenger workings. It looks like this was for a fairly short period in the early 60s. This doesn't of course show whether dmus were also in use on these branches at the same time. There were probably plenty of class 22s available for use in the Weat Country at this time. It could be that replacing a 45xx with a class 22 was easier in the short term than getting hold of and providing servicing facilities for dmus. Also drivers would have been trained on the hydraulics by then but maybe not trained on dmus.
Quote from: Chris in Prague on July 20, 2017, 07:00:35 PM
I don't think the Large Prairies ever made it to Southampton. I'm not an expert on the DNS but I think a 43XX would be the most likely motive power.
I'm sure I'm not the only person now longing for a 43xx. Dapol has a lot of the bits for it .
Bob
Quote from: Chris in Prague on July 20, 2017, 07:00:35 PM
I don't think the Large Prairies ever made it to Southampton. I'm not an expert on the DNS but I think a 43XX would be the most likely motive power.
I haven't seen any photos of Large Prairies at Southampton. Moguls and 2251s were the main motive power on the DN&S but trains usually swapped to southern motive power at Winchester Chesil station. Larger locos (mainly Halls and Granges) were common working down on inter-regional trains to Bournemouth from places like Wolverhampton but they worked via Basingstoke.
Quote from: Bob G on July 20, 2017, 09:18:57 PM
I'm sure I'm not the only person now longing for a 43xx. Dapol has a lot of the bits for it .
Dave Jones has one on the drawing board so it is probably only a matter of time.
Quote from: newportnobby on July 20, 2017, 08:29:03 PM
I'm certainly hoping the Colletts lasted into the early 60s as I run mine behind my Ixion Manor and my Hymeks on cross country services (fingers crossed smiley) @Karhedron (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207)
Yes, Collets certainly survived in service at least until 1962 and possible later (I will have to see if I can find dates).
Oh, do I HAVE to buy a Grange? I have a Hall and a Manor, based on photos in the Railways around Southampton book.
I always thought the Grange was Dapol quick fix, but no one wanted them :)
I know I'm talking to GW folk now, but its like panniers, they all look the same (duck for cover).
I can justify the 51/61xx as they got to Basingstoke, and a bit of rule 1 follows... and I have a 45xx and a 4575 cos I love them.
Bob
I have a Dapol "Grange", Bob, and they are very nice models. However, I know that the nearest they ever got to North Cornwall was Bodmin Road! However, they are classic Cornish locos.
It is possible to make both a 43xx and a 63xx with a kit and a converted GF Large Prairie chassis. I'm waiting for my 43xx to be turned out in BR Lined Green livery. I already have the donor loco. for a 63xx after that. I think it will be some time before a RTR Mogul appears.
The Peco 2251s can be bought, at a price. I have one but I have read that Union Mills will be producing one which should not be as expensive.
So that is two alternatives to a "Grange" for you!
I do not know when the last Collett design coaches were withdrawn from passenger service but would like know. I think 1964 is about right as with line closures, withdrawal of stopping services and dieselisation, they would be no longer required. The Hawksworth design ones lasted longer, a very few even appearing in BR Blue and Grey! I simply cannot understand why Dapol has not introduced them in BR Lined Maroon as they would be very popular for the WR steam to diesel transition period.
In the West Country, the WR replaced 45xx and 4575 class locos. with NB Type 2s in the early 1960s, running with the customary B Sets on branchlines and mixed Collett and Hawksworth design coaches on secondary lines and stopping services. Whilst the single car diesel units appeared soon after and replaced the autotrains, DMU sets were slower to arrive to replace the Type 2s and their coaches. BR Standard coaches, being very new, were very largely kept for mainline services in the early 1960s. However, in North Cornwall, an incredible variety of coaches were used in the late steam and early diesel eras. The Wadebridge scholars' trains being an excellent example.
Here we are, a GWR Mogul at Southampton Terminus in 1949.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/6381_at_Southampton_Terminus_1949.jpg)
Several small GWR classes could be seen at Southampton having travelled from Cheltenham on the MSWJR. They tended to share the work with SR U Class locos. 43xx/93xx were the most common in later years. At one time Cheltenham had two Dukedog locos on their shed roster for use on the line. Does anyone know if photos of their use to the south coast exist?