N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: longbow on September 14, 2016, 09:50:52 am

Title: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on September 14, 2016, 09:50:52 am
I've been testing the slow speed running of recent additions to my loco fleet on my test track (an 11-inch radius circle). Locos are all freshly run in, running forwards.

Slowest scale speeds achieved for a smooth continuous lap: M7 - 8.3mph, Standard 5MT - 5.7mph, Type 22 - 2.7mph.

I'd be interested to hear if these are typical and whether I have bought peaches or lemons.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Bealman on September 14, 2016, 09:57:25 am
G'day, longbow  :thumbsup:

DCC or DC?
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on September 14, 2016, 10:13:05 am
Thanks - forgot that important detail.

All DC at present. But open to DCC later if that improves low speed performance.

I'm planning a terminus layout operated in real life by M7s and Ivatt 2MTs hence my interest in whether these old models in particular are going to be up to a lot of slow speed work. Forum posts suggest not unless I'm especially lucky.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: newportnobby on September 14, 2016, 02:46:09 pm
I think the difficulty with the M7 and the Ivatt will be found in trying a slow start and smooth acceleration as they tend to take off like scalded cats! :uneasy:
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Dorsetmike on September 14, 2016, 11:22:44 pm
If you add a resistor in the track feed it calms them down considerably. Put a switch across the resistor so you can short it out for other locos.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Dr Al on September 14, 2016, 11:44:17 pm
The 5MT should easily be capable of as good or better than the diesel - it has a significantly superior quality coreless motor.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on September 15, 2016, 12:32:24 am
You would think so but presumably gearing and driving wheel diameter also has an effect. The Type 22 has noticeably lower gearing. Speed at full power: Type 22 111mph, 5MT 149mph, M7 249mph+ (and not even full power!).

Thanks for the resistor idea DorsetMike. I'm from Dorset myself - that's Corfe Castle I presume?
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Dr Al on September 15, 2016, 12:33:51 am
My 5MTs perform markedly better than 5.7mph, which does imply yours may not be optimal.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: silly moo on September 15, 2016, 06:15:27 am
Would the make and type of controller affect results in any way? Don't some locos improve after running in?
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Chris Morris on September 15, 2016, 07:33:57 am
Would the make and type of controller affect results in any way? Don't some locos improve after running in?
This is certainly the case. My H&M walkabout (which Is my favourite controller despite its age) is fantastic controlling wild locos such as the Dapol 45xx but the 64xx with its coreless motor just will not run smoothly at low speeds. If I use a simple  Gaugemaster handheld the 45xx is much harder to run gently but the 64xx is nice and smooth at slow speeds.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: silly moo on September 15, 2016, 07:47:57 am
I've got the cheap bog standard Bachmann controller that comes in their DC sets   and am surprised at how well it works. I bought extras off eBay.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: newportnobby on September 15, 2016, 09:36:05 am
The controllers Silly Moo refer to are actually surprisingly good for control of locos although they have no other function e.g. accessories (oh - and don't use the track connectors. Find something more permanent)

Remember also the state of the track cleanliness wise will have a huge effect on how locos run, but that's an entire different thread.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: silly moo on September 15, 2016, 10:09:20 am
Not to mention wheel cleanliness  :D
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Bealman on September 15, 2016, 10:22:21 am
Yep!
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: lil chris on September 15, 2016, 10:43:48 pm
This is the slow running on my 4MT fitted with a CT chip, this is has it comes too, not even tried to program it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIXa8E-XKY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIXa8E-XKY&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on September 15, 2016, 11:08:00 pm
That's about 3mph - nice. From all accounts the new 4MT is a very smooth runner. I might have to stretch a point to accommodate one.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: lil chris on September 15, 2016, 11:31:55 pm
Thanks Longbow, it is a superb model it is now my fav loco better than a 4F I have, I tried it on dc in the shop when I bought it and it was good. It was easy to fit the chip, Nigel of this parish keeps advising how good the CT elec chips are and this one is so small but gives excellent slow running, I think it will go a little bit slower to be honest. Check my layout page there is another video of it pulling into the station, I do not want to hi jack this thread.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: newportnobby on September 16, 2016, 10:25:44 am
The only problem with slowly backing onto a train is most of the time you just end up pushing the carriages halfway down the platform without actually coupling :doh:
A judiciously placed finger at the rear of the train out of camera shot does the trick ;)
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Bealman on September 16, 2016, 10:31:58 am
In bowling club having a beer on an Antipodean Friday night, but  :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: anyway
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Les1952 on September 17, 2016, 09:46:41 am
When Trevor Webster had the original Parnhams layout (the small one that won the NGS Cup) it went out to a few exhibitions in substantially the form in which it was made.  I say substantially because we had to carve chunks out of the backs of buildings and platform edges to get trains to run past them.

The layout had Peco electromagnets for uncoupling with magnetic droppers on the wagons.  Two of these uncouplers were placed quite close to insulfrog points.  As a result the designated shunters for the layout (Trevor's small tank locos and my 04 shunters) used to stall regularly when any shunting was attempted- a definite disadvantage when the layout is a shunting plank less than 5 feet long.

Eventually we found the only locos that would shunt reliably, running at very slow speeds and almost never stalling on the points.  These were Dapol M7s.  Three of my four would crawl slowly enough to position the droppers over the electromagnet and could be gently moved the required couple of millimetres if any adjustment was made.  These were the LSWR, Southern and a first-run BR one.  The second run BR loco wasn't so controllable.

I do remember at Grimsby show (the NGS AGM) one NGS member watching me shunting with the M7 for some minutes before loudly announcing that it couldn't be a Dapol one because Dapol M7s couldn't be made to run like that. 

The controller was one of the small Gaugemaster handhelds.   

Les
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on September 20, 2016, 04:33:36 am
Here's data for my latest fleet addition:

Farish N Class - slowest sustained speed 4.1mph, top speed 146mph. Almost identical to the 5MT so presumably the same motor/gearing.

As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test track circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on September 27, 2016, 06:21:23 am
Another addition - this one unfortunately looks like a bit of a lemon, being noisy and erratic at low speed:

Dapol Standard 2MT - slowest sustained speed 23mph, top speed 229mph.

As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on November 08, 2016, 02:32:26 am
Some data for recent additions. So far I'd grade only 2 out of 9 locos as having good low speed running ie less than 5mph. Underwhelming.

Slowest sustained speed/top speed:
Another Farish 5MT - 7.0mph/149mph. Similar to my first purchase.
Dapol Class 52 - 11.5mph/136mph
Dapol Class 121 - 7mph/239mph
Dapol Hall - 1.2mph/99mph

As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended lubrication and running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Les1952 on November 08, 2016, 06:40:13 pm
MOST of my M7s would run very slowly on analogue.  Given clean wheels and track I can get the DCC-fitted ex-M7 now G5 down slower than one wheel revolution per two seconds.

Les

BTW - at extreme low speeds is the 5MT free of the cogging I've noticed with both of my 2MTs (though not the three WDs which I assume have the same motor)?   By extreme low speeds I mean 1 or 2 speed steps out of 128 on DCC - one has a Bachmann decoder and the other a Zimo sound chip.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Dr Al on November 08, 2016, 06:43:33 pm
5MT free of the cogging I've noticed with both of my 2MTs (though not the three WDs which I assume have the same motor)? 

All these locos have the same motor - the coreless can.

HTH,
Alan
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on November 08, 2016, 07:34:27 pm
All tests results are using DC control.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Les1952 on November 10, 2016, 02:11:43 pm
5MT free of the cogging I've noticed with both of my 2MTs (though not the three WDs which I assume have the same motor)? 

All these locos have the same motor - the coreless can.

HTH,
Alan

... in which case they will probably cog as well.  My WDs don't run that slowly as a rule- the 2MTs stop out front with the inspection saloon and slowly edge past the track gang, so the cogging is very noticeable.  If I get time this weekend I'll see if the WDs exhibit the same symptoms.  Again the three have different chips in them (Bachmann, Digitrax and Zimo sound in order).

Les

As a rather daft aside the 2MTs are the strongest Farish steam locos I have by a country mile- the non-sound-fitted one is the only Farish steamer that will even look at my heavy fitted goods which is normally the preserve of Dapol A3s and Britannias.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on November 11, 2016, 02:34:16 am
Two more test results. Notable that the two Dapol tender drive locos are the best crawlers in the fleet.

Dapol 9F - slowest sustained speed 0.4mph (!), top speed 140mph+.
Farish Std 4MT 2-6-0 - slowest sustained speed 5.0mph, top speed n/a

As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Dr Al on November 11, 2016, 09:38:23 am
Dapol 9F - slowest sustained speed 0.4mph (!), top speed 140mph+.

Worth confirming for reference which 9F this was - the early ones had a different motor than later ones (I presume this is a later one).

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on November 11, 2016, 10:58:32 am
Everything I've tested was recently purchased new. 
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Dr Al on November 11, 2016, 11:00:57 am
Everything I've tested was recently purchased new.

Sure, just worth checking it wasn't some new-old stock - the original motors were much more sticky than the later ones, so unlikely to give the performance you describe!

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on December 02, 2016, 06:33:47 am
Data for latest fleet additions:

Farish Merchant Navy 372-311 - slowest sustained speed 0.8mph, top speed n/a.
Farish Warship 370-070a -  slowest sustained speed 0.6mph, top speed 187mph.

 As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.

Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on February 27, 2017, 03:03:26 am
Slowest sustained speeds for latest additions.

Dapol Hymek - 0.7mph
Farish 4MT Tank - 0.9mph
Another N Mogul - 5.7mph (identical to the first)
Dapol 57xx - 12.4mph (second hand)

As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.

Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on April 30, 2017, 08:50:56 am
I have just started to DCC my fleet with the Zimo MX622N chip and it is certainly making a big difference to the mediocre runners. My Farish 5MT on DC managed a slowest sustained speed of 5.7mph. On DCC, and with only a preliminary tuning of the motor settings, that has dropped to 1.5mph.  The stall speed of my Dapol Class 121 has fallen from 7mph to 1.1mph.  
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: Waz on May 01, 2017, 10:29:41 am
He slowest running loco I own is my Class 66 which running on my rolling road will happily crawl along as a scale 0.5mph. And it will achieve this also running on a clean layout. However I did spend a lot of time setting up the decoder in it and I also feel it may have something to do with the quality of the CJM chassis.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on May 01, 2017, 12:12:39 pm
Slowest sustained speeds for latest additions. Once again Dapol steamers show exemplary (albeit noisy) slow running.

Union Mills T9 - 5.3mph
Farish Class 47 - 0.4mph
Dapol 38xx - 0.3mph
Dapol Pendleton Hall - 0.2mph

As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on May 22, 2017, 08:34:01 am
Slowest sustained speeds for latest additions. As for previous data, results are on completion of recommended running-in period, on clean 11" test circle, using Gaugemaster DC Combi controller.

Farish King - 0.2mph. Exemplary!
Farish Warship - 1.1mph, very good though my other Warship managed 0.6mph
Dapol Class 52 - 12.4mph. As much of a nail on DC as its stablemate - but see below.

I have already remarked that running my poor performers on DCC has transformed their slow running abilities and so it proved with the Class 52, which on DCC improved its slowest speed from 12.4mph to only 0.2mph! This was achieved with a mid-range DCC23 decoder with default motor settings and shunting speed selected, rather than the more sophisticated Zimo MX622N I am now fitting as standard.

 
Title: Re: Slow speed running - some test results
Post by: longbow on August 04, 2017, 11:47:19 pm
As a further illustration of the performance benefits of DCC, the slowest sustainable speed for my Dapol M7 has dropped from 8.3mph to 0.4mph after fitting a CT DCX77zN decoder.