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Author Topic: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign  (Read 3612 times)

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Offline Calnefoxile

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2017, 01:37:34 pm »
Ok here's my 2'penneth worth.

The cost of the APT-P is certainly putting me off, however compare it to the nearest item available at the moment a Kato Eurostar, a full length Eurostar is 20 coaches and at current prices will cost you in the region of £400-£500 from Gaugemaster http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/Kato-N-Scale-Eurostar however, I'm not convinced that by buying the Powered set and the respective number of add on sets, your Eurostar will have the correct number of the different type of coaches in it, more knowledgeable people will be able to comment on that.

So compared to that, DJM's proposed price is a tad unrealistic, however we have to take into account that Dapol were going to produce the Prototype HST minus the 2 Buffet cars and if I remember correctly, that was at circa £500, and don't forget that Dapol already had the HST Coaches available in production. This set is being produced from scratch, as is/was the Revolution Pendolino.

At the moment in N Gauge DJM has produced The Mermaid which, as I've said previously, is actually a very good model it's not without it's faults but I'm sure we can find faults with other manufacturers efforts, and we all invariably do.

But I think the biggest criticism of DJM is that he keeps coming up with announcements in N but not producing anything tangible, the Mermaid is available but only in 1 livery, the sale of which will finance another livery run - I'm sorry but produce a smaller batch of models but in more livery's, how many people are waiting for a specific livery of Mermaid?? I know I am, I want Olive Green and/or Dutch, how long will I have to wait??

If you check out his website http://djmodels.co.uk/ apart from his announcement of the 24.5ton Hopper, no mention of the APT-P anywhere.

I think frustration is the operative word with DJM, I honestly believe that Dave is full of good intentions and that he may get overly excited about things, but he then commits to things he can't deliver. We're probably all a bit guilty of that from time to time.

Right of me soapbox, thanks for sticking with my ramblings and I don't think I've actually reached a conclusion  :doh: :doh:

Oh yes I did, in the opening sentence I said I couldn't afford a DJM/Stanley Trains APT-P, I'll probably try and get one of the 3d Printed ones being touted elsewhere on the NGF.

Cheers

Neal.

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2017, 01:38:41 pm »
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb:
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.


Its a liberal use of English.  He actually is almost the only crowdfunder to have also produced a RTR model

Offline Calnefoxile

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2017, 01:44:01 pm »

DJM Dave on RMWeb wrote:
Quote
Durham Trains of Stanley hope that this is the first of a NEW ĎWest Coastí range in N gauge and hope to produce the following models in the coming years as part of the rangeÖ..Classes 81, 82, 83, 84 and 85, plus EMU classes 303, 304 and 312.


I'd happily find home for an 85 and a 304.

Steven B.


Steve,

I'm with you mate, I noticed that as well. I'd happily make room for most if not all of them.

It's bad enough at the moment trying to get BR Blue Dapol 86's & Farish 87's.

Cheers

Neal.

Offline Calnefoxile

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2017, 01:46:38 pm »
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb:
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.


Its a liberal use of English.  He actually is almost the only crowdfunder to have also produced a RTR model


I think Revolution Trains might have something to say about that!!!

However. let's not get into mudslinging a debate about Revolution versus DJM, that's been hammered to death in previous threads. Let's just concentrate on this thread which is about the APT-P.

Cheers

Neal.

P.S. I'm not a MOD  :D :D :D

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2017, 01:50:11 pm »
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb:
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.


Its a liberal use of English.  He actually is almost the only crowdfunder to have also produced a RTR model


I think yours is a very generous interpretation. I read a misuse of English. I'll extend the benefit of doubt, and assess it as accidental misuse rather than deliberate mischief.** But it conveys a great untruth which ought to be corrected.


** EDIT: The next post confirms it was deliberate mischief.
Ah you misunderstand Revolution have not released a RTR that was not also crowdfunded DJ has, that's why its fancy footwork on his use of English.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 02:33:38 pm by RailGooner »
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Online Snowwolflair

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2017, 01:50:28 pm »
Ah you misunderstand Revolution have not released a RTR that was not also crowdfunded DJ has, that's why its fancy footwork on his use of English.

Online woodbury22uk

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2017, 02:02:35 pm »
Ah you misunderstand Revolution have not released a RTR that was not also crowdfunded DJ has, that's why its fancy footwork on his use of English.

What has DJM crowdfunded in N that has come to market? I mean by that where people paid the funds direct to DJM not another crowdfunding agency.  I see in his guise as a manufacturer he has made for crowdfunders in other scales.  But that would make him a successful manufacturer rather than a crowdfunder. I think my Revolution TEAs were crowdfunded by me and a lot of others, and mine were certainly RTR.
Mike

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Offline PaulCheffus

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2017, 02:07:19 pm »

That is why he is now offering crowdfunding so he can go down the Revolution route, and I hope he makes the transition.

What to do - buy his available product to give him the cash to produce more.

Off the top of my head he's announced:

- n gauge cars
- n gauge 92
- 00 gauge 92
- n gauge HUO
- 00 gauge HUO
- APT
- n gauge King

That's 7 models, plus commissions, I'd say that's a very definite transition!

Hi

The cars were cancelled IIRC some time back as not viable.

Cheers

Paul


Offline njee20

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2017, 02:48:34 pm »
Never said they were successful, merely that it was something else he offered via crowdfunding. Snowwolflair implied he was considering a transition to crowdfunding, was just saying heís more jumped in with both feet IMO.

The RTR Crowdfunded thing is a bit misleading, itís not really any different to him referring to his 92 as ďde facto model of the class for modellersĒ which heís done in several places. Itís a bit unprofessional.

Still, this is about the APT, I do hope it succeeds, itíll certainly make a very impressive model, I just wish it was half the price so I could have a punt on one!

Online woodbury22uk

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2017, 02:57:22 pm »
The RTR Crowdfunded thing is a bit misleading, itís not really any different to him referring to his 92 as ďde facto model of the class for modellersĒ which heís done in several places. Itís a bit unprofessional.


It is a bit like those one word "reviews" attached to films and stage show pubiclty. "The level of amateurishness was breathtaking" gets translated as "Breathtaking".

I would like an APT-P. A bit bedazzled by the options at the moment, and uncertain whether I will survive the full length of the gestation period, though I hope that I will.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 02:59:46 pm by woodbury22uk »
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Online railsquid

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2017, 03:01:05 pm »
Still, this is about the APT, I do hope it succeeds, itíll certainly make a very impressive model, I just wish it was half the price so I could have a punt on one!
Seconded; if I really really wanted an APT I'd go for it, but I don't, so won't, at least at that price. I would however splash out a similar amount for a selection of the 1st gen AC electrics hinted at, if there were a plausible chance of them ever appearing before I shuffle off this mortal coil.
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Online Snowwolflair

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2017, 03:01:37 pm »
I think you ask yourself.  Does it cost to reserve one and do I have to pay anything before I can evidence it will be delivered.  One thing I am sure of is if you donít ask you wonít get.

Offline njee20

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2017, 03:12:47 pm »
Thatís what led Revolution to have a significant gulf between expressions of interest and orders on the 321 though, and I donít think is helpful. The reality is that I wonít buy one based on whatís been presented so far, so whilst I am ďinterestedĒ in the truest sense of the word I think itís disingenious to formalise my intent.

If things change then maybe Iíll order one, but Iím not going to over inflate the apparent interest.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 05:16:46 pm by njee20 »

Offline Vonzack

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Re: DJM APT-P
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2017, 03:46:46 pm »
An announcement probably better suited to 1st of April for me. For the asking price, these need to be very premium models at the end of the day, especially as they won't be DCC or Sound on board.

Offline DJM Dave

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Re: D.
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2017, 04:07:29 pm »
Ok,

Iíll post here the once, for those that choose to ignore or twist the facts, and for those that know and understand them. (yes I know this is a harsh opening sentence but please bear with me)

I am, like others, trying to make a careers out of being self employed making model trains. You all know me I think, and I will cover quickly the business plan I have, that I also laid out in the Ďother placeí so that there could be no miss-interpretation.

I have a list as long as my arm of products announced, and freely admit it is too long. I made a decision on the OO J94 to allow the tool to make far signs of the model than iíd Originally budgeted. this would give, as long as I donít flood the market and kill the goose, an income I could semi rely on for years to come in alternate decorations, and new running numbers.

However itís all very well having these grandiose ideas, but they needed paying for. And the bill for tooling lept from 5 figure to 6 figures (then the decimal point) and affected monies available to invest in the other models.

Subsequently I announced the Q6, Mogul etc, thinking that things would turn around quicker than they have and as such these models are still on the drawing board. I have all intention to do them, as I said I would, but no dosh to finance them.
So, meanwhile I was commissioned by clients to make models for them. Obviously being the small guy, my contracts left only a small amount of profit per project to put back into the business. But them's the breaks and a percentage of something is better than all of nothing right?

Anyway, I decided to do the pendolino as a crowdfunder. But didnít. At the same time I did the OO class 71 as one and succeeded where others havenít by producing the worlds first 100% crowdfunded RTR Model railway locomotive.
Subsequently adding special commissioned liveries to that model to make a small profit.

Meanwhile a chance to make my beloved class 92 came along as a potential crowdfunder and in both gauges at the same time too. Great, I didnít have the money or a manufacturer behind me but ploughed on, and am on the verge of tooling both scales having just secured the Stobart licence for a model in each scale.

I then played with the idea of cars, but in all honesty I can see why it wasnít a successful idea as not only did modellers not come forward, it was obvious why, as I truly didn't have a handle on what marks or makes of car people wanted, so that was my fault.

The chance for the king in N was too good to miss, and as such without monies a crowdfunded venture was the only way.

Iím pleased to say the king and both 92ís have been successful and will all be invoiced at the end of January with tooling started on all 3 almost immediately the deposits are in.

So, what about the progression of my own range I hear you say, well thatís plodding on, and the chance to make the mermaid, shark and a couple of other wagons at a reasonable tooling price proved too tempting and as such I decide to increase the range on N in my portfolio from 0 to 1 by paying for the mermaid which is now out in black, and soon to be in Dutch, and will add the shark when I approve the 2nd ep for production.

Monies from these have come from the J94 sales, and the class 71ís.
And before anyone says it, no, I donít have any more cash squirrelled away, I made only on both projects, plus some from clients on others, but itís all vatable, corporation tax is in there somewhere, advertising too, it all mounts up.
And itís not just a loco quote anymore, itís box, livery samples, masks, spares, it all costs and whittles away at your Ďprofití.

Anyway, so with a whittled down profit, but still profit, I decided to do the mermaid. I donít make much, in fact profit wonít be achieved until the run after the dutch ones, and the profit will be relatively small, but a percentage of something etc......

Iíve managed to pay for the first ep of the class 17, and have approved it for 2nd ep status, prior to decorated models and production models.
A lot of companies in China want production payments up front so iíll Have to find that, and also 25% of the total tooling costs for 2nd ep samples too.
Oh and not forgetting the box it comes it. All a pretty penny that........ could have been almost fully paid for if I hadnít have decided to alter the tooling for the OO gauge J94

Do I regret that decision? Yes and no. Yes because as most of you know iím An N gauge man, and would love to have had the 17 out by now, and onto the 23, and no because I have to look at the long term picture of a viable income stream through a market that is bigger than N gauge.

I know there are gaps in this, but please be gentle, I could go on, but iím Boring enough right? Lol

Anyway, crowdfunding. Someone posted that if you donít spend, you donít lose, and that even if you sign up, your not necessarily paying anyway....king, huoís, etc.

But please note, and this is very important, a DJM crowdfunder is that, a crowdfunder. Isnít not a usurper of DJM main range funds, itís a separate issue, and has nothing to do with the explained reasons why that isnít speeding up as iíd Like (and letís not talk about brexit in there either or I will really bore you on how much I lost in profit).

Crowdfunding, whoever does it, is a way of getting you, if you want one, a model you might not ever see, or might wait years to see from mainstream manufacturers.

Itís not risk free, but it helps everyone in the long run, due to increasing the presence of the gauge (Iím talking N gauge specifically here), and to us all as modellers by bringing more investment into the N gauge hobby. That cannot be bad, can it?

Now, onto the APT. (Oh no they all collectively cry, thereís more?) like any company who gets approached by a third party for a project, do you turn it away?Well youíd be dumb not to accept it, especially as the APT is a favourite of mine, and given the fantastic exclusive help we are getting from Crewe. and giving back in a small way too.

So anyway, I will not turn away any business, and the APT gives me a big chance to step up features etc as I did with a previous employer, and hopefully raise the bar a tad or 2.
It is not, I repeat, not A DJM crowdfunder, it is a Durham Trains of Stanley crowdfunder, and I have been contracted, should funds be raised, and so far itís a huge response in both gauges that even I thought initially possible, to design, manufacture and supply sets to my client for onward sending to you, the customer.

I have ample free time to design models should I get commissions, or others wanting to run a crowdfunder. But being almost part time at the minute, I get to relax in Wales on a mountain photographing low level fighter jets for a hobby.
Given the choice though, iíd Rather be much much busier.

So there we are...... now you know, iím not rich, Iíve made mistakes, things are happening slowly on the main range but far quicker on crowdfunders as funding to do them is there through you the modeller.
You know that one doesnít affect the other immediately, although should a crowdfunder project make money it will go into the N gauge list projects.

Ergo the more crowdfunders I do that succeed, and actually make money from,  the more models come out, and I hope to one day pay myself a wage........oh yes I bet, I hear you say at the back..........truthfully, I havenít taken a wage for 4 1/4 years. Itís a building business, and building not as fast as iíd Like, but building nonetheless.

5 years from now I hope youíll all be moaning that thereís too much choice in N gauge. I know some of you will ;-)

So I sign off by saying thereís more surprises to go as I still have 2 contracts to get signed which will be liked by quite a few when you get to see what they are for etc, but thatís for another day.

Those that know me know I want the best for the hobby, I hope Iíve proved that in the past, what I need to do now is show you that I need to carry on doing that, but trust me, itís my intention to try and try hard, although hard doesnít mean anything if there are no models in the shops.

Some of this may not sway the doubters, nay sayers, or agenda people in here (and yes you know who you are as much as I and others do) but it is honest, open and frank.

Please remember, though, the APT is a third party commission, like the Kernow gate stock or Hattons 14xx, and not a DJM led project.

Cheers guys, and may I be the first to wish you all a very happy Christmas and a wonderful new year.

Dave
DJModels Ltd


« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 05:34:30 pm by DJM Dave »
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