Protocab - About to produce control for N Gauge locos

[Railwaygun]

Protocab with N gauge conversion and news of N gauge version

https://protocab.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=069a0922187536ea473d59675&id=c73ca8a47b&e=f1f02f1ac5

[Dr Al]

The fundamental problem here seems twofold:

1. Reliance on lithium batteries is going to end up costly - they simply don't last the significant lengths of time that we tend to own models (10s of years) - meaning they'll likely need replaced maybe as much as 6 or 7 times in a loco living 25 years (assuming the normal degredation after 3-4 years). Care also needed in damage to models if batteries expand with age - this is not uncommon on consumer electronics.

2. Users won't be able to chop and change locos easily as any new purchase would need conversion, and perhaps worse, I suspect the resale value of converted models will be virtually greatly reduced, unless they can be retro-returned to original condition, and given what is necessary this seems unlikely.

The idea has some merit, but I struggle to see it becoming all that mainstream.

Cheers,
Alan

[njee20]

Yep, still not really seeing much point.

I do like the idea of no wiring, but unless you build the layout with Protocab in mind that's a bit moot surely, we all have layouts that are already wired.

The GUV conversion in the article epitomises the issue - you have to then have a 'mule' vehicle to go with the loco at all times, so it's only really good for fixed rakes, yet the limit to the number of locos means it's only good for smaller layouts, so you need small layouts but not shunting or depot ones. O gauge... maybe. N gauge... not at the moment, and I'm not sure I can see it working any time soon.

[JanW]

I think they are working on a nice system. Loco chips are getting smaller and they have feedback.
Let's hope motor control can be adjusted as good as with the best DCC chips.
But DC, DCC and track power are not only used to manually control a certain loco.
There are all kinds of automated systems (block systems and automatic stop sections on DC and complete computer control on DCC) that rely on the track power in some way. Another way of detecting trains (rf transponders?) will be necessary.
I wouldn't want to have more than two trains running if I had to control all of them manually 

Jan

[davecttr]

I have had some N scale experience with BPRC and agree that the main problem is the battery.  I did convert a class 08 with the receiver and battery in a VBA van. It was a joy to use with all those rail power issues going away. It had spent 3 years in a drawer and when I powered it up of it went without any problems. I reckon if I wanted to I could fit the latest stuff in a normal box van.

A problem is where to put the battery, modern fixed formation conversions are OK but what you want is a Class 66 that can pull a long train for a significant time.. Steam era might be better if you have tender locos.

Battery tehcnology is advancing so there may well be batteries with 2 or 3 times the capacity in the same volume in a few years. Replacing batteries should be considered as part of the running costs anyway.

i see the future for model railway control as a system that can use DC or DCC track power or onboard batteries with seamless auto switching between track and battery. This is already available from BlueRail trains but not yet suitable for N scale.

Being released from the horrors of track wiring and cleaning on my 00 scale layout has been a joy for me, the trains just run!

[Dr Al]

Battery tehcnology is advancing so there may well be batteries with 2 or 3 times the capacity in the same volume in a few years. Replacing batteries should be considered as part of the running costs anyway.

Lithium Ion is well known as being fairly close to a safe maximum energy density level (looking at other sources there are few others more dense, other than those nature has been working on for eons, such as fossil fuels....). Gaining 2-3x in the same number of years is simply highly unlikely with current methods and technology, and that's the same line peddled by those who think electric car ranges will increase rapidly because of cell/battery technology, but the current science says otherwise.

In reality, it's more efficient motors that'll make the difference, and in model form this applies too - recent motors draw between 10 and 20 times less current than those of even 10 years back.

Whilst I applaud folks for exploring new ideas, I still don't see it as viable - I don't want to be limited to hauling fixed rakes or coaches permanently coupled behind locos (modelling a depot becomes impossible for example), I don't want them all sitting there degrading and ultimately needing replacement prematurely (i.e. before the loco itself would - which they will, that is demonstrably true, and poor quality Li-ions can bulge with age - do you want that happening in an already packed installation in your favourite model?) and their resale value (as I do do some chopping and changing, as do most of us I think) basically emiminated.

As an aside, the current trend is basically to stick a lithium ion battery of cells in just about every electronic device - I'm no massive environmentalist, but most of these devices are going to end up dying fairly prematurely, many because of these cells, and disposal and or recycling of the cells seems a potential time bomb of both pollution and additional energy usage that we are setting up for ourselves and sleepwaking into.

Cheers,
Alan

[Old Crow]

Batteries! Well, what's to stop you adding cells in a coach or van and linking them? Seems a better bet than trying to get something in a tender.  Li-ion do hold charge well but I take the point about all the eventual recycling.

[Dr Al]

Batteries! Well, what's to stop you adding cells in a coach or van and linking them? Seems a better bet than trying to get something in a tender.

Think I covered that:

"I don't want to be limited to hauling fixed rakes or coaches permanently coupled behind locos (modelling a depot becomes impossible for example)"

I've seen RC done on OO layouts, and frankly the compromises of fixed wagons (with high loads to accommodate the power source) that don't match the rest of the train just stick out like a sore thumb.

Cheers,
Alan

[davecttr]

Batteries! Well, what's to stop you adding cells in a coach or van and linking them? Seems a better bet than trying to get something in a tender.

Think I covered that:

"I don't want to be limited to hauling fixed rakes or coaches permanently coupled behind locos (modelling a depot becomes impossible for example)"

I've seen RC done on OO layouts, and frankly the compromises of fixed wagons (with high loads to accommodate the power source) that don't match the rest of the train just stick out like a sore thumb.

Cheers,
Alan

BPRC is OK at 00 scale or larger. I have almost 40 locos already converted ranging from little 0-4-0 saddle tank to large Pacifics and diesels. They all have onboard batteries and have good hauling capacity with sufficient endurance. The problem with N is it just to small and fiddly, especially with my old eyes and eyesight.

Modelling a depot might be the easiest project to do. It depends on how many milliamps you locos need running light engine at relatively low speeds. If your class 66 at 15mph draws 100mA and you can find room for a 70mAh UM lipo (approx 25 x11x6mm) You will get over 35 minutes of running, plenty for depot moves.

[Dr Al]

Modelling a depot might be the easiest project to do. It depends on how many milliamps you locos need running light engine at relatively low speeds. If your class 66 at 15mph draws 100mA and you can find room for a 70mAh UM lipo (approx 25 x11x6mm) You will get over 35 minutes of running, plenty for depot moves.

Sorry, no chance it fits my use case - depot attached to a main station where locos come on and off trains after working the main line. Add to that the previous battery and resale concerns, together with the time and expense of installation, and I just don't see it.

Plus, I don't want to have to wait to charge locos every 35 mins of use - currently it's : go! whenever I want to with track power. Even charging the Faller road system can be a pain, and they typically last 5 hours.....

Also, with track power I see that a depot type model will become very interesting in near terms with track power and the emergence of credible DCC sound - all those locos simmering could be quite atmospheric.

Cheers,
Alan

[emjaybee]

Well, I can certainly see the merits in this system. It'll be great, a ten minute run-a-round with one loco, pop that and it's accompanying "power-car" into a siding for 30 mins for charging, get another one running around for ten minutes etc., etc., it'll be great.

Of course that'll be the end of shunting, realistic consists, multiple locos running simultaneously.

Having some experience of "tiny" Lithium batteries, there's no way on gods green earth I'd have charging points on a layout or batteries in my stock. I have a few small radio controlled model aircraft, I'm talking one foot wingspans ( that's 12 inches in old money), they are all a very reputable brand, but they recommend charging on a non-flammable surface and never unattended. I have had one charger burst into flames...

...but the most spectacular issue was the Mustang fighter I was flying, which, coming out of a barrel roll started trailing smoke from below it's "engine" cowl, which shortly turned into flames before the aircraft plummeted into the ground like a special effect from a B grade war movie. The few months old lithium rechargeable battery had decided enough was enough.

I think I'll pass on this project for a while yet.

[Caz]

I have trouble squeezing in a speaker and sound decoder let alone having to find room for a wifi board and battery!   

[cutting42]

I think the answer lies not with batteries but enhanced "stay alive" systems.

A radio system for comms makes a lot of sense and can be miniaturised effectively but the power delivery should take advantage of the rails being there to keep a super capacitor charged up on a semi constant contact. You would only need to send power to the rails and not have to worry about the more complicated elements of dcc wiring like points, return loops and track circuits. as you would only wire up the regular track lengths.

[cutting42]

As an addendum I am also very experienced in the use of lithium batteries in my other hobby of racing RC electric cars.

We use high capacity (around 5000mah) lithium polymer (LiPo) battery packs and run them extremely hard. For all race meetings you will be thrown out for charging your battery if it is not enclosed in a "LiPo sack" that is designed to hold back the flames. Battery fires are very rare but extremely destructive and almost impossible to extinguish once they get going.

In addition, they are usually only good for around 500 charge cycles before performance drops off significantly. They are not the solution for model trains IMO.

[davecttr]

Well, I can certainly see the merits in this system. It'll be great, a ten minute run-a-round with one loco, pop that and it's accompanying "power-car" into a siding for 30 mins for charging, get another one running around for ten minutes etc., etc., it'll be great.

Of course that'll be the end of shunting, realistic consists, multiple locos running simultaneously.

Having some experience of "tiny" Lithium batteries, there's no way on gods green earth I'd have charging points on a layout or batteries in my stock. I have a few small radio controlled model aircraft, I'm talking one foot wingspans ( that's 12 inches in old money), they are all a very reputable brand, but they recommend charging on a non-flammable surface and never unattended. I have had one charger burst into flames...

...but the most spectacular issue was the Mustang fighter I was flying, which, coming out of a barrel roll started trailing smoke from below it's "engine" cowl, which shortly turned into flames before the aircraft plummeted into the ground like a special effect from a B grade war movie. The few months old lithium rechargeable battery had decided enough was enough.

I think I'll pass on this project for a while yet.

I will ignore the sarcasm!. As I mentioned earlier IMO 'N' is too small for BPRC except with fixed formations.but lets look at the other issues as there are some popular misconceptions.

Shunting entirely possible and there are systems out there that can offer RC shunting anywhere on the layout.

You can have realistic consists, American or UK style, but not with the Protocab system.

Multiple locos running simultaneously- no problem, but not with Protocab! I have a double track continuous run with branch that can also be continuous plus a small goods yard and 2 road shed/turntable etc. I can run 3 locos or more if double heading on the continuous runs and do some shunting and shed movements, all at the same time.

Lipo fires. Charging and discharging a lipo for rail use is different to model plane use. You can charge at a low C rate and my discharge rates with a 400mA loco don't exceed 2 or 3 C depending on lipo capacity. The discharge demands are way below those needed for planes. None of the stuff even gets warm.

Charging. I do charge off loco on a fireproof surface with E-flite chargers. Why on layout charging when you can change a battery in less than a minute. I did have a 220mAh cell get hot on charging but that was retired.

Some of my diesels use NiMh packs and you can get up to 4 hours run time with those, they don't explode either.

Why the negative comments about Protocab? IMO it is under specified and too expensive. A lot of potential there but not there yet.

Too sum up, the battery technology is not there yet for 'N' scale.