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Poll

Would You Buy a Crowd Funded NBL Type 2 Diesel-Electric Locomotive in N Gauge?

No
31 (42.5%)
Yes - One Model
19 (26%)
Yes - Two Models
12 (16.4%)
Yes - More Than Two Models
5 (6.8%)
Yes - One Plus At Least One Dummy
6 (8.2%)

Total Members Voted: 71

Author Topic: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study  (Read 19206 times)

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ScottyStitch

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NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« on: February 04, 2015, 12:24:40 pm »
Over on the Revolution Trains thread, Ben has suggested I put forward a case for the NBL Type 2 locomotives as a potential candidate for a future Crowd sourced model.

I'm outlining what (limited) knowedge I have of these enginess to hopefully garner some interest from my fellow NGFers.

The Class 21s were 1,000HP pilot scheme locomotives, ten being ordered in 1958. This number was increased to 58 and all were delivered between 1958 and '60.

Between those dates, the first 38 were initially sent to work on the Eastern Region and sheded at Stratford, Hornsey and Ipswich for services into London. The rest of the production batch (1,100HP) went to Kittybrewster, a northern suburb of Aberdeen for work on the GNSR main and branch lines. They were synonymous with workings in Peterhead, Fraserburgh and Elgin (via the coastal route). Some of these engines also found their way to inverness for work over the West Highland Line (I believe)

By the end of 1960 the Eastern Region machines had been relocated to Eastfield (Glasgow) for work on the Strathmore route to Aberdeen (Usually in pairs), and services to Dundee, Oban (via the Callander/Glen Ogle route), Fort William and Mallaig, but a factor in their location was to have them nearer their manufacturers workshops, their shortcomings having become evident in Anglia.......

I'm not sure if there is any evidence that they ever worked over the Waverley Route or the Highland Mainline, but I'd be delighted to see some.

Due to reliability issues (engine fires weren't uncommon) 20 class 21s were selected for re-engining, relenquishing their MAN engines for Paxman (1,350HP) replacements. These were to be redesignated Class 29.

Being non-standard, with their manufacturer having gone bust, with poor reliability, and of such a small batch, all the Class 21s were withdrawn by 1968. None exist now.

The Class 29s held on for slightly longer and made it to December 1971, before the last was withdrawn. None now exist.

So why propose this particular model for a future crowdfunding project? Well:

1 - Their Scottish use was reasonably widespread, being noted as far south as Carlisle, into Fife, their hinterland of the North East, their "flagship" use on the Aberdeen/Glasgow 3hr services, as far west as Maillaig and as far North as they were extant throughout the whole of the popular "transition" period.

2 - There is scope to model their (albeit brief) service on the Eastern region.

3 - They are arguably handsome fellows, particularly with mini snow ploughs fitted, albeit with particularly sad eyes, sharing more than a passing resemblance to their shorter Hydraulic Class 22 cousins.

4 - Dapol are already producing a class 29 4mm version, due for delivery in quarter 3 2015 (with the earlier Class 21 to follow). But with no immediate public plans (as far as I'm aware) to produce it in 2mm, this might be a quick, relatively low cost way for Revolution Trains (if they fancy taking it on) to get another product into development, by partnering with Dapol. Since Dapol already have the plans and 4mm CAD, perhaps they would welcome our funding to get the CAD through the shrink ray, etc, etc, and deliver a new N gauge diesel locomotive.

5 - These engines would arguably be the last of the notable production Type 2s to be produced in N, and for some are the Holy Grail of the Scottish Region in the transition period.

6 - The Class 21s ran alongside their re-engined Class 29 brothers, in addition to both classes running in pairs much of the time. Multiple purchases can be more than justified.

7 - The engines are equally at home on a long heavy main line oil or van train as they are on a fast express, slow passenger or short branch line pick-up freight. They were also equally as likely to be found sitting at a small single/double road branch sub-shed as at a large mainline shed. Therefore, their suitability for layouts large and small, and everything in between, is enhanced.

8 - If the crowdfunders and their chosen partner were agreeable, dummies could possibly be produced to take the sting out of the cost. (This is speculation on my part)

9 - There are a copious amount of images available illustrating the engines throughout their career, both on Eastern Metals and Scottish. From all over green, to Green with small panels, green with large panels, blue, etc etc.

That then is my case for the NBL Type 2 Class 21/29. I myself would be in for 4 powered and 2 dummies, at least.

I will put a poll above and perhaps we can have a show of hands. When considering the poll, bear in mind that in a run of 1000 models, all liveries would be covered

Also bear in mind that if there turns to be significant tooling differences between the Class 21 and the Class 29, it may be that one or the other would be considered. So for the time being, in principal, the poll refers to the NBL Type 2 of either sub-type

Over to you!!

*(Any and all corrections to the above locomotive details is welcomed.)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:12:34 pm by ScottyStitch »

ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Revolution Trains Case Study
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2015, 12:33:33 pm »
Class 21 Numbering:

D6100D6157

The re-engined Class 29s

D610003, D6106-D6108, D6112D6114, D6116, D6119, D6121, D6123, D6124, D6129, D6130, D6133, D6134 and D6137

Offline red_death

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Revolution Trains Case Study
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2015, 12:51:28 pm »
Some pics:

Class 21


North British Type 2 D6122 (8391424603) [CC BY-SA 2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0)], by Hugh Llewelyn from Bristol, UK (D6122 Uploaded by Oxyman), from Wikimedia Commons


Harringay West geograph-2392160-by-Ben-Brooksbank [CC BY-SA 2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0)], by Ben Brooksbank (From geograph.org.uk), from Wikimedia Commons

Class 29:


Class 29 D6121 (8392450774) [CC BY-SA 2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0)], by Hugh Llewelyn from Bristol, UK (D6121 Uploaded by Oxyman), from Wikimedia Commons
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 12:55:05 pm by red_death »



ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Revolution Trains Case Study
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 01:04:43 pm »
Mike & Ben

I have posted on the NBL Type 2 appreciation Facebook page to get some answers with regard to visible external differnces between the two classes for sure. The most obvious difference appears to be removal of the interconnecting doors and the addition of FOUR FIGURE headcode boxes......? Whereas the un-modified Class 21s retained the disc system.

Unfortunately I don't know how to put a photo into a post from a website.....


« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 08:36:58 am by ScottyStitch, Reason: correction re class 21 headcodes »

ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Revolution Trains Case Study
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 01:56:16 pm »
Class 21 - on a Cambridge bound express



Class 29 -  Perth



Class 21 - Hadley Wood 1959



Class 21 - Nice detail of the connecting doors and the reporting discs that folded left to right rather than top to bottom



Class 21 - Portgordon 1966. Blue Grey coach in the formation



Class 21 - Near Elgin, a nice short length train.


Offline Arrachogaidh

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Revolution Trains Case Study
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 01:57:58 pm »
facebook

Robert Bapty is on Facebook. To connect with Robert, join Facebook today.

Robert Bapty > ‎Dapol Ltd
Hi Dapol, any plans for class 21/29 in n-gauge?
5 January 2014 at 03:51 Public
Dapol Ltd
Hi Robert, Not currently but who knows if the OO version goes well.
6 January 2014
(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Revolution Trains Case Study
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 02:13:28 pm »
facebook

Robert Bapty is on Facebook. To connect with Robert, join Facebook today.

Robert Bapty > ‎Dapol Ltd
Hi Dapol, any plans for class 21/29 in n-gauge?
5 January 2014 at 03:51 Public
Dapol Ltd
Hi Robert, Not currently but who knows if the OO version goes well.
6 January 2014

Maybe a crowd funded partnership would help them along.........

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« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 02:43:07 pm by Arrachogaidh »
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ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 04:32:21 pm »
I have had some replies to my queries on the facebook page associated with the 21s/29s.

Regarding the Class 29:

"Quite major roof differences and two new intake grills let into both sides - one window behind the main cooler group grill was lost to these grills and an identical grill let in to the panel directly below. Exhaust ports on the roof were in completely different places, and headcode panels added to all except 6123. Also small rotary ventilators added in at least two places on the roof to aid ventilation"

Now, I'm not sure on the intricacies of tooling the body, but would that necessitate an entirely different tool? or could the tool be modified? It sounds like a lot to have a different side, roof and nose.

That being the case, my inclination is to suggest producing one or the other. Whilst the 29 would allow both the two tone green livery and the blue livery, it only covers 20 examples.

The Class 21 covers all 58 examples, and whilst they were all in all over green, there is the options of no panel or small yellow panel. As far as I'm aware they didn't get full panels.  I thought i read somewhere that some 21s got split headcode boxes but I cant find reference to that, nor would the pictorial evidence bear that out.

I'd really need some kind of NBL expert to come along and confirm my suppositions........

Offline Portpatrick

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 04:55:15 pm »
The Pendolino held no modelling interest for me.  However as 21/29 in green is top of my wish list.  I cannot in honesty see myself wanting (being allowed?!) more than 2 - either both motorised or 1 dummy, 1 motorised.  I note the implication that Dapol are not planning one at present.  Which strikes me as a shame.  The similarity to the Hydraulic version is striking.  Surely the difference is in grills, doors etc.  The basic shape and size of the shell looks the same.  But we are where we are.

I would I think be more likely to buy 2 if there was either only a 21 or a mix of 21 and 29.  If there was only a 29, I would certainly buy 1 but not 2. 

I will look through my many books showing the locos in Scotland to see what livery, permutations I can find, and also look to see if indicator boxes were added.  I cannot remember seeing them.

ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 05:08:48 pm »
Some drawings from "British Rail Main Line Diesel Locomotives" by Colin J Marsden and Graham B Fenn.

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

I'm not entirely convinced about their accuracy. Whilst it does show the difference in the grill/window arrangement on the sides (Dwg 66 Class 21, Dwg 68 Class 29), and the noses, the roofs look pretty much the same to me......


As an aside, according to the discussion on this page, it is the 21 that Dapol is producing first in 4mm, even though their website says its a 29  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/25872-dapol-class-2129/page-14


I think that's as far as I can take this in terms of research, from the resources I have. Thanks everyone for listening to my rambles.



Portpatrick, although th elook the same, the Class 22 was much shorter.

Offline Portpatrick

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 05:18:35 pm »
Yes, I then found your earlier reference to this and checked the Wikipedia pages on the classes.  The 22s were c 5ft shorter.  So somewhat more of a challenge for Dapol than I thought.  New chassis and stretched body as well as frames and underframe detail and bodywork detail.  So I am certainly up for this if it becomes viable.

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 06:05:28 pm »
I whole heartedly agree with Portpatrick - the Pendolino holds no interest for me (though I do wish the project luck) but a 21/29 project absolutely does.  If someone sets up a Kickstarter campaign just tell me were to go and I'll pledge!

I've actually always been a bit surprised that this class hasn't been produced yet.  Perhaps there are fewer Scottish themed layouts than I thought.  I've been giving some serious thought to modelling the ex-GNSR Speyside line in the early-mid 1960s.  Derby and BCRW Type 2s are already available and so is the EE Type 1, but these North British diesels were also fairly common on this line.

I personally do not think they are as good looking as the Class 22s.  The 22s have a different bogie which I find more elegant and also more cab overhang over the bogies.  As already mentioned, the 22s are also about 5 feet shorter.  But the 21/29s still have have a certain charm and I think are de rigueur for a Scottish branch line layout set in the early diesel era.  I would happily buy two, and possibly more if I could obtain approval from SWMBO.

Matt

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 06:24:29 pm »
Nice bit of history there Scottystitch and yeah I could be up for one with a dummy dependent on costs, if they are about 100-120 for the powered I would be in, not sure what your Dummy price would be but it seems a super idea.

I would love it in two tone green with later BR crest class 29.
Geoff

ScottyStitch

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Re: NBL Type 2 Class 21/29 - A Crowdfunded Case Study
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2015, 07:57:32 pm »
A few further snippits, my Facebook enquiries are still bearing fruit.

It's pretty certain that the Waverley route didn't see a NBL Type 2, certainly it's never been spotted or photted.

There were trials on the Highland Main line, comparison run between Glasgow and Inverness, with two 21s v two 26s/27s. The 21s were D6100 and D6107. I don't have a date. There may have been other pairings after that. But still no indication of regular Highland Mainline turns.

The Far North Line, North of Inverness, also appears to have been a rare routing, if they ever made it there at all.

The eyebrow/no eyebrow difference had nothing to do with 21 v 29. During the original 21 build, the early ones had them (up to D6121 or D6122, the later ones after that didn't have them.

After reliability problems were identified on the Eastern Region, some 21s sat covered in tarpaulin at Peterborough awaiting transit North.

More to follow if and when I get anything.

 

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