DC vs DCC

[4x2]

I'm just wondering if i'm alone on this but, why do i feel like the only one who thinks DCC is being pushed way too hard. I don't doubt that having the ability to turn lights on and off is great and your shiney new HST with valenta sounds is awesome, but i think the manufacturers are keen to push this technology, not for the good of the hobby, but to make money (i know this sounds obvious). Take sound decoders, at most the basic components cost £5-£10, yet can double the price of a loco. I've seen just plain decoders sell for £50... why ? To be honest i really don't see the point in DCC...

After 30 mins the sounds start to drive me crazy....
Yes, you can control many loco's at the same time - I'm rubbish at multitasking, so disaster is only round the corner !
Most users say their loco and coach lights are great - but have no other lights on their entire layout !

But most of all - The Cost. By the time i've bought the system, decoders, point decoders, boosters it's getting close to at least £200 (depending on number of loco's and size of layout). Now this may surprise you... I like DCC, But i see it as a luxury item to add to that wish list that needs lottery funding  I prefer to use DC as it is cheap, simple, reliable - I just wish that people would not push DCC like it's some sort of new must have games console, all i want is to watch my trains go round and round without feeling that i've been left out...

Rant over !

[poliss]

DCC has been around for 20 years now so it's not exactly new. Some of the benefits. Better slow speed control. More realistic control, you can set your loco up to behave exactly like the real thing if you want to. Isn't that what we're trying to do? Make a miniature representaion of the real thing?
Why are sound decoders so expensive? It's not just about the components. Someone has to record the sounds of the real thing to put on the decoders in the first place.
Moving locos from one oval to another is simpler. Layout wiring is simpler, although I do believe some people like all that spaghetti knitting.

As for cost. I don't think my DCC equipment has cast more than a DC setup because I bought all of it on Ebay.

[Mustermark]

My layout design means i dont need to drive different locos on the same line. So i went for DC. However i dont think the saving on chips for my 50 locos has saved me all that much because i've bought a laptop and CTI controllers. The slow speed running is great amd everything from point and signals to the loco speed and inertia can be automated or done manually on the laptop. I dont regret not choosing DCC.

[poliss]

But you are DCC, it's just that you have your Digital Command and Control system on the other side of the rails instead of having decoders in the locos.

[guest311]

please o knowledgeable ones,

but what is CTI ?

I think I can just about get my head around DCC, but how do you have the same effect without chips, or do you still have to have them ?

[poliss]

What is CTI ? - An overview of the CTI system.
http://www.cti-electronics.com/whatscti.htm

[guest311]

poliss,
many thanks for the link, reading now
:computersmile:

[Mustermark]

My layout is all 12V DC. The 12V supply is controlled by small control boards that are supplied by CTI Electronics. Their 'Smartcab' controls inertia by measuring "back EMF" (i think) which tells the control board how fast the loco is going or how much load the motor is under. It's clever and complicated but for the operator it's dead simple as all the electronics does it for you.

So while there are complex electronics involved there is no AC current and no direct command signal. All locos on the same line get the same voltage delivered. That doesn't actually mean they necessarily run at the same speed though, but genarally i can run a double header without thinking about it (if i dont have a dummy to hand).

All in all, my plan is to have a completely automated layout that runs itself (station stops and signals etc) unless i feel like playing along.

[poliss]

Another section needed for computer control?

[guest311]

Another section needed for computer control?

and don't forget the dummies guide 

will have another look at the link at home, as our IT police limit what we can do / download, but it really does look a fantastic system.

but so does DCC, so it gets even more of a choice ...... my head hurts !

thanks again

alan
class37025

[longbridge]

I am old fashioned I guess so DC will do me just fine, it has been said before but I like to control my locos not programme them, having said that its to each his own and whatever people choose to do I hope they are happy and getting the most out of this great hobby.

[guest311]

some years ago, when I was modelling [excuse the language] HO US outline, I did look at DCC, it was so impressive what was being done over there, and each month seemed to bring even more when MR arrived.

but in the end I stayed with DC, as my only real reason for the advantages of DCC was to be able to add and detach helpers to coal trains, and after much thought and trial and error I achieved the same effect with carefully placed track sections and a seperate controller.

certainly more spaghetti, but at least I could see what did what, and I could troubleshoot it when [definitely not if] it went wrong.

while cost has to come into all our decisions, I think it comes down to what you are used to, and more importantly, comfortable with.

I will most likely be operating my layout either on my own, or with either my son in law or an mate from my service days, and I suspect that we'll just want to drive the trains, and I think we'll end up using the handheld controllers on my Morley vesta, and following the trains round the shed, throwing point and section switches as we do, and most importantly ----enjoying ourselves .

perhaps I'm just getting too old for all this electricery, now where did I put that 1,000 page dummies guide to programing the DVD recorder??? 

[4x2]

Wow...
That's a lot of responces over night ! Glad to see i've got a bit of support, I'm not deniying that DCC is better - of course it is ! I understand that it's now well established and popular with newcomers and that can only be a good thing, however I prefer DC, and my point was that I would like to continue with DC without the feeling of being left behind - After all we're here to enjoy the hobby aren't we ?

[Newportnobby]

I totally agree with everything said but at the end of the day - each to their own. As a DC old f**t, I do however feel I am paying over the odds for a loco that, to be honest, I'm going to take all the non essential gubbins out of and add some weight to get the thing to run
Having said that, I would like to see how to computerise things and would welcome a separate board and some tutorials.
I must get myself into this century somehow

[Dr Al]

DCC has its plus points and its minuses. It's definitely better for controlling modern image models for light control. Sound is a rich mans plaything in my opinion - way too expensive at the moment for most. (600 quid for an HST anyone?!?!) Also I think it actually sounds audibly poor - with crummy small speakers held within the locos you don't get the effect of a real loco IMHO - it just sounds like a toy to me.

I don't understand some people's seemingly blinkered desire to have DCC though - some seem to think immediately "Digital = better" even when they are constructing a simple oval layout that won't benefit much from multi-loco control and can easily be wired in DC.

In short, DCC seems best suited to large complex layouts where you can make best use of all its advantages.

For me it's simply too costly to convert my fleet to DCC - I'd rather spend my time scratchbuilding than DCC converting/fault finding, and I'm not a fan of locos fitted with DCC where you can see the decoders 'hiding' in the cabs or suchlike - some of my kitbuilt models simply do not have space for a decoder anywhere. A lot can be done in DC with cab control and suchlike, if I really wanted sound I'd consider doing something more complicated with much beefier higher quality speakers mounted under the layout or suchlike. And whilst DCC can help make things run better, you still need to start out with a loco that runs well on DC - DCC won't cure fundamental assembly, design or QC issues with a model.

One aspect of DCC I do like and am keen to explore is DCC turnout control (but retaining DC power for the track) - this seems a great way of cutting down the huge amount of wiring otherwise required to motorised a large number of turnouts - instead you can just run a bus line around the layout of a few wires. This seems highly desirable for robustness and minimising connections at baseboard joins.

Cheers
Alan