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Author Topic: The big flanges on old Farish locos.  (Read 707 times)

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Offline Old Crow

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The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« on: October 29, 2017, 12:26:28 am »
My 2-6-4 tank, which has a problem (particularly going forward) on points, does have the "pizza-cutter" flanges on the bogies. Well. it doesn't come off the track but I'm wondering, are these really oversized flanges what is giving me problems on the points? Going forward into facing points there is enough of a hard bounce over the frog to just lift the driving wheels on one side and lose contact for a fraction. You can ride through at speed but not slowly.

Just wondering if the big flanges are, in fact, lifting the loco as they cross the frog. Anyone considered this? Anyone modify their points - certainly better with the gap between the guard rail and main rail carefully filed out and the frog levelled and smoothed over. Also slightly deepened the groove in the plastic on either side of the frog. Not perfect but an improvement. Anyone ever changed the bogie wheels for later spec, if you could get them?

Another thought. The bogie wheels obviously have plastic inserts so as not to short out. Anyone thought of extending the pickup area to these? Sure works wonderfully on the Coronation Pacifics where there is extra pickup on the tender. Would have to be extra flexible wire or some clever system so the bogie would be free - just an idea.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2017, 12:39:42 am »
Most N gauge locos with "pizza cutters" will still run quite happily through modern Peco code 80 track and even Peco code 55.  The deep flanges do help with tracking, but on the other hand they can be ugly and the current trend is for smaller flanges.

I must admit that some of the most recent Peco points I've bought do seem to have slightly less depth in the flangeway at the frog compared to older points, there seems to be an extra ridge in the plastic and I have taken to deepening the frog very slightly to ease the path of some of my really old Arnold locos from the 60s and 70s.  I've noticed the same on recent OO9 points also.

Do check the back-to-back of the bogie wheels. and also check the bogie isn't crabbing to one side and causing a wheel flange to hit the nose of the frog?
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline PLD

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2017, 09:09:30 pm »
Do check the back-to-back of the bogie wheels. and also check the bogie isn't crabbing to one side and causing a wheel flange to hit the nose of the frog?
Yes - As a number of contributors advised on your other thread, this sounds very much like the symptoms of an under gauge axle. You need to get a back-to-back gauge...

Offline Old Crow

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 01:27:11 am »
Yes thanks guys I'll order one.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 09:40:04 am »

Yes - As a number of contributors advised on your other thread, this sounds very much like the symptoms of an under gauge axle.

..or possibly over-gauge.   An under-gauge wheelset will tend to jam or ride up on the check rail or wing rail because it's too narrow for the spacing of the two flangeway gaps.  An over-gauge wheelset will cause the flange to hit the nose of the frog.
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Old Crow

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 06:09:28 pm »
Thanks friend. Yes, I've ordered a gauge but not sure how I can re-adjust the spacing. If it's a bogie then ok but there's no doubt the rear drivers are hitting and rising on the frog or check rail and it's just this loco. I do think I may have a dud - or rather underperforming - set of points as it's not nearly as pronounced on the other set I've tried but yes, something is going on and I wouldn't like to be the engine crew on this one.

Online Dr Al

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 12:19:24 pm »
Don't muck with Poole loco driver wheel spacing - the wheels are heat treated onto the axles, and are always set correctly (unless someone has previously been monkeying with them) - if you try and move them you'll likely cause more trouble with non straight wheels or loose wheels or suchlike.

Bogie wheels are different, and can be slid on their axles, so are definitely worth checking. If they are set the same as the drivers though (which you can easily check without waiting for a gauge) then they are unlikely to be the problem.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Old Crow

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 08:16:20 pm »
Thanks Doc - I wouldn't dare mess with the drivers, what with all that intricate valve gear but, I'm advised it might be a gauge problem???? 2-6-4 tank certainly runs better over points in reverse but going forward with the two wheel bogie leading it definitely jumps as the rear drivers go over the plastic (insul) frog. Tried deepening the frog ways - made a bit of difference but it's not happy.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 08:23:32 pm »
Intriguing.  Any change of a short video of the loco demonstrating the problem at slow speed?

Any chance it's actually something like a coupling drooping and catching, rather than the wheels themselves?

Can you feel anything if you lightly/gently push the loco through the point?
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Old Crow

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 08:43:29 pm »
Don't have video facilities sadly. Yes, if you push the loco over the point, you can see/feel it rise. wondering if it's just this set of points?? Must try others but only running a small test track as I'm just starting the layout proper. Still, the other locos cope fine. Wonder if it's possible to fit some sort of contact extension to the rear bogie wheels without compromising their movement - would need to be somethnig flexible and clever.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 08:51:31 pm »
Wonder if it's possible to fit some sort of contact extension to the rear bogie wheels without compromising their movement - would need to be somethnig flexible and clever.
Tricky. 

If you look at old Minitrix locos, they pick up on one side of the bogie and pony truck by having a wheelset that's only insulated from the metal axle on one side. a thin wiper carries power from the axle to the mechanism. Not perfect but better than nothing.

The best way these days seems to be to use insulated half-axles with axle-point pickups or split chassis. A lot of Japanese models use this method, it has less friction than wheel or axle wiper pickups. Still tricky to transfer power from small pivoting bogies though.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 08:53:04 pm by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline PLD

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 09:55:08 pm »
wondering if it's just this set of points?? Must try others but only running a small test track as I'm just starting the layout proper. Still, the other locos cope fine.
DO try this loco through other points and other locos through this point. That should quickly identify where the fault lies...

If this loco has problems on other points the fault is with this loco.
If other locos have problems on this point the fault is with this point. If they don't the fault is with this loco.

Offline Old Crow

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 01:18:36 am »
Well I can't afford the fabulous new stuff yet so my locos are pre-owned. Been lucky with some that are fine, specifically the Chinese Poole-spec models with the low profile wheels. But I do have a couple of others that are pretty old with big flanges on the driving wheels. I note these seem unhappy on insulfrog points and also do not enjoy tight curves. Much as I'd love to turn down the wheels I guess I'll have to accept that these will never be great and I'll look out for low-profile wheels in future.

Online Dr Al

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 09:11:09 am »
Unless the older stuff is very very old (the early 1970s stuff), or you are using some odd form of trackwork it should not have problems with its flanges - Peco code 80 setrack and streamline as well as code 55 should accept it fine.

On insulfrogs they should be ok, particularly if they are fitted with tender pickups (which they should be, and were from the factory, unlike the Chinese models and some very late English ones from 1997, 1998 onwards, where they were deleted). Therefore these actually have the best footprint in terms of wheelbase.

Also, bear in mind that the newest English production is now getting on for 20 years old, and the oldest is 35 years+, so it's highly likely that good service and overhaul will do these models the world of good, as in my experience the vast *minority* of secondhand models have never been properly maintained.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline CarriageShed

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Re: The big flanges on old Farish locos.
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 01:34:58 pm »
One other thing to point out is that if it's the bogies that are causing the problem (does the problem exist with the bogies removed?), then you can replace the bogies. Either try another Farish bogie or assemble your own using the N Brass Locos kit (also available ready-built).

There are two of the kits fitted to this chassis:


 

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