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General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 06:30:59 PM

Title: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 06:30:59 PM
Hello all,

On my layout planning thread I've been asking about what to run on a tight flexi-track layout (around 4" radius). The consensus seems to be an 0-4-0 but There aren't many around. There was also a suggestion of an 0-6-0 with the centre wheels removed or flanges filed. I don't mind this but it's not ideal.

After much internet and eBay searching I came across some nice little Lima diesel shutters that only have 4 wheels. Does anybody know or ever tested if one of these will run on a tight radius curve? From the photos I can't properly see the wheel arrangement and from the side view they appear quite "fixed". I'm sure there's enough play for normal cornering but is there enough for a tight radius?

For £30 it's probably worth the gamble but wondered if anyone had any ideas first?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks
Paul
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Bob Tidbury on October 02, 2018, 06:39:17 PM
The Lima shunters  were very much over scale ,more like three mm than N gauge and they were very fast ,not much good for slow shunting manoeuvres ,the only Lima loco that was nearly N gauge was their version of an electric loco but that would be far to long for a very small layout and just wouldn't look right on tight curves .One of the Farish O3 or O4  shunters would suit you much better.
Bob Tidbury.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: PLD on October 02, 2018, 06:45:02 PM
If its one of these
http://www.goinglocomodels.com/product/lima-d2790-diesel-br-blue-shunter-n-gauge-pre-owned/ (http://www.goinglocomodels.com/product/lima-d2790-diesel-br-blue-shunter-n-gauge-pre-owned/)

simply avoid - horribly crude mechanism 80% chance it wont run, the other 20% have two speeds 'Max' and 'stop'...
body resembles nothing british and is way over scale you may have clearance issues.

:thumbsdown:
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 06:52:42 PM
Quote from: PLD on October 02, 2018, 06:45:02 PM
If its one of these :thumbsdown:

I'm glad I asked now because it's exactly that!

Quote from: Bob Tidbury on October 02, 2018, 06:39:17 PM
One of the Farish O3 or O4  shunters would suit you much better.
Bob Tidbury.

Thankyou. I'll have a search and see what I can find.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: port perran on October 02, 2018, 07:02:31 PM
Just a thought.
Does it have to be a diesel?
If not, would a Dapol 0-4-2T cope on those very tight curves?
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 07:21:26 PM
To be honest it doesn't have to be anything. I'm wide open to suggestions. The main thing for me is something that will just run!

If I'm completely honest I don't even know what all the numbers mean. I know it's something to do with how many wheels and how many are driving etc... but other than that I have to keep googling it to work it all out!  :-[
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: port perran on October 02, 2018, 07:29:55 PM
Try this.
It's 0 front bogies, 4 driving wheels and 2 trailing wheels hence0-4-2.
They are lovely little locos.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/223162513403?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-134428-41853-0%252F2%253Fmpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.co.uk%25252Fi%25252F223162513403%25253Fchn%25253Dps%2526itemid%253D223162513403%2526targetid%253D520181215099%2526device%253Dm%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9061007%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D1464305199%2526adgroupid%253D59704400547%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-520181215099%2526abcId%253D1139116%2526merchantid%253D113747387%2526gclid%253DEAIaIQobChMIu9OKprHo3QIVLZPtCh21gQjKEAQYAiABEgLw_PD_BwE%2526srcrot%253D710-134428-41853-0%2526rvr_id%253D1689321294895%2526rvr_ts%253D360980b61660aad6c712814efffb9f8a (https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/223162513403?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-134428-41853-0%252F2%253Fmpre%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.co.uk%25252Fi%25252F223162513403%25253Fchn%25253Dps%2526itemid%253D223162513403%2526targetid%253D520181215099%2526device%253Dm%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9061007%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D1464305199%2526adgroupid%253D59704400547%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-520181215099%2526abcId%253D1139116%2526merchantid%253D113747387%2526gclid%253DEAIaIQobChMIu9OKprHo3QIVLZPtCh21gQjKEAQYAiABEgLw_PD_BwE%2526srcrot%253D710-134428-41853-0%2526rvr_id%253D1689321294895%2526rvr_ts%253D360980b61660aad6c712814efffb9f8a)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: AlexanderJesse on October 02, 2018, 07:30:42 PM
Quote from: PLD on October 02, 2018, 06:45:02 PM
If its one of these
http://www.goinglocomodels.com/product/lima-d2790-diesel-br-blue-shunter-n-gauge-pre-owned/ (http://www.goinglocomodels.com/product/lima-d2790-diesel-br-blue-shunter-n-gauge-pre-owned/)

simply avoid - horribly crude mechanism 80% chance it wont run, the other 20% have two speeds 'Max' and 'stop'...
body resembles nothing british and is way over scale you may have clearance issues.

:thumbsdown:
and with the long wheelbase it requires bigger radiuses.... I have two of them ... 50% failure rate
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 07:37:48 PM
The old Lima things are poor, as has been mentioned already.

Does it have to be British N? There are some lovely small continental N diesel shunters, the Köf types made by Arnold, Minitrix and Ibertren (the latter now out of production).

Arnold Köf II, Ibertren Köf III, with old Farish 08 for size comparison
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/5885-021018192929.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=69653)

There are also some slightly larger 0-4-0 diesels by Minitrix and Arnold.

There some really small Japanese shunters by TGW, though I have no experience of those.

What about small steam locos?   Again Arnold, Fleischmann, Ibertren, Minitrix all offer (or have offered) them. 

Need some more info on exactly what type of loco you want for your layout?
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: zwilnik on October 02, 2018, 07:39:52 PM
Are we talking the Kato super tight radius curves? In which case the old Minitrix T3 0-6-0 goes round those quite happily. The only real issue I found with most stock on those was that longer wheelbase wagons would easily buffer lock unless they had really long couplings.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 08:10:01 PM
Thank you for the replies. Not Kato; it's even tighter than that. I have 245mm to play with so it will be around 5" radius max.

The layout scenic are not set in stone but there will be an English industrial building in the centre that the siding sits alongside. Imagine the kind of train that did (or still does) deliver wagons and containers. English would be the ideal and if I could choose anything it would be steam but it is absolutely "rule 1" and it's just a bit of fun so I'd take reliability over geographic and age specific detail.

If it can do a full loop and back one wagon into the siding then I'd be very happy whatever it looked like. If I don't like the colour of what I find then I may even paint it and brand it as an imaginary private company delivery train.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 08:10:01 PM
English would be the ideal and if I could choose anything it would be steam but it is absolutely "rule 1" and it's just a bit of fun so I'd take reliability over geographic and age specific detail.

How about this little thing, the Koppel loco by TGW?    I don't know if these are actually any good.
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10383037 (https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10383037)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Lazy-Ferret on October 02, 2018, 08:34:11 PM
I don't know how good these are, but I have a similar problem to you, as my layout will have tight turns, so I was looking at these 0-4-4-0. They could be fun and there are several of these from different manufacturers on Ebay.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/cbsAAOSwIr9bmTh7/s-l225.jpg)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lima-N-gauge-diesel-locomotive-Large-Shunter-D8915/401598071568?hash=item5d811c4310:g:cbsAAOSwIr9bmTh7 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lima-N-gauge-diesel-locomotive-Large-Shunter-D8915/401598071568?hash=item5d811c4310:g:cbsAAOSwIr9bmTh7)

There is also this little 0-4-0
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/GgQAAOSwespbo1Yh/s-l225.jpg)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARNOLD-N-GAUGE-2086-DB-CLASS-335-167-3-MAROON-DIESEL-SHUNTER-LOCOMOTIVE-OS2/192663983738?hash=item2cdbab167a:g:GgQAAOSwespbo1Yh (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARNOLD-N-GAUGE-2086-DB-CLASS-335-167-3-MAROON-DIESEL-SHUNTER-LOCOMOTIVE-OS2/192663983738?hash=item2cdbab167a:g:GgQAAOSwespbo1Yh)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 08:42:08 PM
@Lazy-Ferret (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5179)    Don't bother with the Lima bogie centre-cab, it's basically an 0-4-0 mechanism like their small shunter (and just as poor), with the other wheels pivoting on fake bogies.

(This one had its motor removed decades ago and now acts as a dummy double-header)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/5885-021018204836.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=69656)


If you want a V100 style centre-cab  like that then I've always preferred the Minitrix above the Fleischmann and Arnold versions.

The little Arnold Köf III is a better model than the old Ibertren one I posted earlier.   A bit bigger than their Köf II model.

Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 08:56:44 PM
Lots to look at there. Thanks to all. I think it will come down to which one a fancy on eBay on payday!

There's something about the TGW one that just doesn't look right but I can't put my finger what it is. I doesn't help that I work for a company called TGW so that might be putting me off a bit. Lol. I really like the Arnold kof II and the maroon Arnold shunter so thanks again for the links!

How tricky would it be to change the couplings on some of these smaller locos? They all appear to have couplings that I don't recognise.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 08:57:37 PM
Fleischmann used to do a decent little 0-4-0 which would turn up reasonably regularly on ebay and at swap-meets etc.   I'm not sure if it's actually in production these days.

Very similar was the Ibertren "Cuckoo".  Long out of production, these were very cheap when available new, and quite decent. They even have knurled wheels like the old Triang locos of the 60s!    My set with loco and 3 spanish coaches cost me £17 in the 80s.   Again they used to turn up on ebay regularly, but 009 modellers used to snap them up as useful chassis.  There was even a version with a smoke unit.

Please excuse the dust, this one's not been run for a long time!
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/5885-021018205621.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=69657)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 09:03:00 PM
Quote from: Pjlons83 on October 02, 2018, 08:56:44 PM
How tricky would it be to change the couplings on some of these smaller locos? They all appear to have couplings that I don't recognise.

Yes some of the smallest Arnold locos have a simple hook rather than a full Rapido coupling. So does my Ibertren loco.  It works well enough coupled to the normal Rapido, in fact it's better for tight curves.    I'm not sure if it's easily changed, from memory I don't think the Arnold has a standard T shank fitting.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: Lazy-Ferret on October 02, 2018, 08:34:11 PM
There is also this little 0-4-0
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/GgQAAOSwespbo1Yh/s-l225.jpg)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARNOLD-N-GAUGE-2086-DB-CLASS-335-167-3-MAROON-DIESEL-SHUNTER-LOCOMOTIVE-OS2/192663983738?hash=item2cdbab167a:g:GgQAAOSwespbo1Yh (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARNOLD-N-GAUGE-2086-DB-CLASS-335-167-3-MAROON-DIESEL-SHUNTER-LOCOMOTIVE-OS2/192663983738?hash=item2cdbab167a:g:GgQAAOSwespbo1Yh)

I see Rails don't bother to mention that particular model is missing both couplings!  It has those yellow dummy Rk900 shunting couplings but would need Rapidos fitted to actually pull anything.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Lazy-Ferret on October 02, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 08:42:08 PM
@Lazy-Ferret (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5179)    Don't bother with the Lima bogie centre-cab, it's basically an 0-4-0 mechanism like their small shunter (and just as poor), with the other wheels pivoting on fake bogies.


Thanks for that, ironically, I have been looking at the Atlas American ones, but when I saw a BR one on Ebay, I linked to it with out reading it properly... But good to know about the Lima stuff...
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 09:23:45 PM
Quote from: Lazy-Ferret on October 02, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
..  I saw a BR [Lima centre-cab] on Ebay, I linked to it with out reading it properly... But good to know about the Lima stuff...

Totally fictitious re-livery of a german V100 loco, presumably trying to pretend to be a class 17 but with utterly wrong proportions.  It's not even a good model of the german loco, it has a large bulge on one side to accommodate the Lima motor gearing.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: AlexanderJesse on October 02, 2018, 09:42:15 PM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 09:23:45 PM
Quote from: Lazy-Ferret on October 02, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
..  I saw a BR [Lima centre-cab] on Ebay, I linked to it with out reading it properly... But good to know about the Lima stuff...

Totally fictitious re-livery of a german V100 loco, presumably trying to pretend to be a class 17 but with utterly wrong proportions.  It's not even a good model of the german loco, it has a large bulge on one side to accommodate the Lima motor gearing.
My research lead me to an american modell "Plymouth MDT" (http://www.spurweite-n.de/ncontent/ndb/ndb-artdetails.asp?ID=453057377&DoLog=0&Sel_Bezeichnung_VString=&Sel_Produktdatum_VString=&Sel_KatQuelle_FString=&Sel_Produktstatus_FString=&Sel_Hersteller_FString=&Sel_ArtikelNr_VString=&Sel_Mixed_Full=Mdt&Sel_ORDERBY=Bezeichnung&Sel_Vertrieb_FString=&Sel_Epoche_FString=&Sel_Baureihe_VString=&Sel_MitBild_Bool=&Sel_Digitalschnittstelle_FString=&Sel_Gesellschaft_FString=&DispCount=25&Sel_Gattung1_FString=&Sel_Gattung2_FString=&ToShow=0&MaxCount=23 (http://www.spurweite-n.de/ncontent/ndb/ndb-artdetails.asp?ID=453057377&DoLog=0&Sel_Bezeichnung_VString=&Sel_Produktdatum_VString=&Sel_KatQuelle_FString=&Sel_Produktstatus_FString=&Sel_Hersteller_FString=&Sel_ArtikelNr_VString=&Sel_Mixed_Full=Mdt&Sel_ORDERBY=Bezeichnung&Sel_Vertrieb_FString=&Sel_Epoche_FString=&Sel_Baureihe_VString=&Sel_MitBild_Bool=&Sel_Digitalschnittstelle_FString=&Sel_Gesellschaft_FString=&DispCount=25&Sel_Gattung1_FString=&Sel_Gattung2_FString=&ToShow=0&MaxCount=23))

I believe the class 27 should reference a british class: Typ MDT BR 332 (Class 27)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: AlexanderJesse on October 03, 2018, 11:57:26 AM
http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Locomotives.htm (http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Locomotives.htm)

Shows some Lima locos... including the mentioned 0-4-0 shunter
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 03, 2018, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: AlexanderJesse on October 03, 2018, 11:57:26 AM
http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Locomotives.htm (http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Locomotives.htm)

Shows some Lima locos... including the mentioned 0-4-0 shunter

Not quite - those are HO models not N.  The HO model of the centre-cab diesel didn't even try to represent the bogies.
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: AlexanderJesse on October 03, 2018, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 03, 2018, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: AlexanderJesse on October 03, 2018, 11:57:26 AM
http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Locomotives.htm (http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Locomotives.htm)

Shows some Lima locos... including the mentioned 0-4-0 shunter

Not quite - those are HO models not N.  The HO model of the centre-cab diesel didn't even try to represent the bogies.
Now I see... but it mentions the Plymouth MDT and its use on the British islands railways
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 03, 2018, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: AlexanderJesse on October 03, 2018, 01:14:52 PM
Now I see... but it mentions the Plymouth MDT and its use on the British islands railways

Not as far as I know, unless there's one used in industry or dockside use somewhere.  Certainly not on BR, so in that respect it's totally fictitious.  Some manufacturers do these sorts of fantasy paint-jobs with their cheaper models, just to sell more models in other markets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Rail_modern_traction_locomotive_classes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Rail_modern_traction_locomotive_classes)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 04, 2018, 09:54:31 AM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on October 02, 2018, 09:10:42 PM

I see Rails don't bother to mention that particular model is missing both couplings!  It has those yellow dummy Rk900 shunting couplings but would need Rapidos fitted to actually pull anything.

I messaged them about fitting some and they said that they weren't sure about doing it which makes me think it's a trickier job than I anticipated. Is this something you've done before?

Thanks
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: ntpntpntp on October 04, 2018, 01:03:40 PM
Quote from: Pjlons83 on October 04, 2018, 09:54:31 AM
I messaged [Rails] about fitting some [couplings] and they said that they weren't sure about doing it which makes me think it's a trickier job than I anticipated. Is this something you've done before?
I don't personally own an Arnold Köf III (though a friend does).   Looking at the exploded diagram for the current model it takes standard sprung T-shank couplings so should be just a case of removing the bottom plate and fitting the couplings.  Easy enough.   I doubt the older models are any different.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/downloads/view/download/item/581 (https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/downloads/view/download/item/581)
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Phoenix on October 04, 2018, 06:50:04 PM
 :hellosign:

Hi Paul,

I hope you don't mind me taking  advantage of your question to get a bit of practice in with videos  ;)

As you see from the ruler, my upper level oval is about 8" across (20.5cm) which is approx. 4" radius.

The first loco is a Graham Farish 04 class diesel shunter .....

https://www.modelmaniacs.co.uk/rail/graham-farish-n-gauge/diesel-electric-locos-139/graham-farish-371-051c-class-04-diesel-shunter-d2259-br-blue-with-wasp-stripes (https://www.modelmaniacs.co.uk/rail/graham-farish-n-gauge/diesel-electric-locos-139/graham-farish-371-051c-class-04-diesel-shunter-d2259-br-blue-with-wasp-stripes)

Which goes round perfectly well, without any modification

The second loco, which is the one I run is my Dapol Terrier, a beautiful little loco. As I mentioned before I had to file the centre flanges off, which was a job fraught with danger  :o  :goggleeyes:  :o

Anyway, I hope this helps ...



All best wishes
Kevin

:beers:
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Pjlons83 on October 04, 2018, 11:41:04 PM
Thanks Kevin. That's good to see. It's something I've been quite nervous about. I'm hoping to purchase a loco before starting any serious scenery work just in case I need to modify anything.

Seeing your little video has made me more confident now though!

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: Phoenix on October 05, 2018, 02:02:45 PM
Hi Paul,

Glad to be of help, and glad to have the excuse to practice with video.

On a tiny layout every mm really does count, so be careful with any clearances with scenery, especially with curves. You can get some really big overhangs with some wagons. My platform edge had to be miles away from the track  :D

It is well worth it to check running with your wagons before fixing anything permanent. The little diesel shunter should suit you well though.

All best wishes
Kevin

:beers:
Title: Re: Shunter on a tight radius curve?
Post by: port perran on October 05, 2018, 04:59:07 PM
And that little 04 is a lovely loco too.