OCD

InsaneSociety · October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM

Hello all, I'm new here so forgive my first post.
Am I the only modeller who hates seeing trains go round in circles? Probably not, but my real bug is mix matched formations. I recently saw a fantastic looking model on youtube only to be horrified by the fully fitted train having a brake van

I was seething! Or perhaps a wonderful model set in the glorious 1950's ruined by a class 47 with garish red livery, - makes my blood boil.
But here is my question for modellers who go for the extra realism, - how should a rake of Mk 1 coaches be formed behind a loco? It would be interesting to hear your opinions so here is the task, - It is an 8 or 10 coach formation and must include a buffet or restaurant car.
Go ahead punk, make my day...

njee20 · October 22, 2018, 02:44:48 PM

Welcome. Slightly curious first post.

What do you mean by circles? As in one train doing lap after lap of a layout? Or do you mean you only like end-to-end layouts?

There are plenty of examples of fitted trains with brake vans, just because they're not necessary doesn't mean it never happened.

There is no right way to form rakes of coaches, if you want true fidelity then look for photographic or written evidence of the services you wish to emulate in the right geographic location and time period. The composition of a steam operated service will be very different to a modern charter set, even though both could meet your criteria.

martyn · October 22, 2018, 02:53:30 PM

Until about the late 60s, when BR changed the rules, even fully fitted freights were required to have a brake van as accommodation for the guard. Or it could have been a requirement to get a brake van to a destination for another duty.

As for passenger formations, as has already been said, study photos, or look on more specialised websites; I have the East Anglian area coaching working diagrams which I obtained for a very modest charge (less than £1 each year) from the Great Eastern Railway Society website. The working diagrams will give you plenty of ideas..........

HTH

martyn

emjaybee · October 22, 2018, 02:59:27 PM

You need to come and see what I get up to bloke, I reckon I could tip you over the edge! I love watching the same train going round chasing it's own tail, and as for loco/stock combinations...

Newportnobby · October 22, 2018, 03:57:32 PM

Welcome to the forum

'Horrified' - 'Seething' - 'blood boiling'

Oh dear. In steam days there was no room on the footplate for a guard so the poor soul had to be somewhere, even on a fitted freight, hence the goods van.
As to train formations, there is no set answer as it depends what sort of train it was and where it was so maybe some clue as to region might help some of our experts. As an example, holiday traffic would expect to carry more luggage so would have more capacity for that etc

Steven B · October 22, 2018, 03:59:12 PM

There are (were) plenty of examples of fully fitted freight trains running with brake vans. Until sometime around the 1990s any train carrying damgerous goods needed a guards van. Trains that needed a long propelling (reversing) move would also have a brake van.

Are you asking how should a rake of Mk1s be formed? The answer depends very much on era and location.

By the period I'm modelling (1980/90s), most Mk1 based trains (even those with 8+ coaches) didn't have buffets or restaurant cars. I have nine trains made up of wholly mk1 coaches, ranging from 4 to 10 carriages in length. Only two (one charter, one steam special) have buffet cars - prototypically none of the others did.

A class 47 on a layout set in the 1950s has bigger problems that the colour - the first one wasn't built until 1962.....

Steven B.

InsaneSociety · October 22, 2018, 05:18:44 PM

Martyn,- The video I was referring to was a modern rake (hoppers) pulled by a 47 I think. I didn't know about all fully fitted trains pre 196? and me being an ex-driver as well!!
Njee20 , yes, I mean seeing 90 degree curves and trains appearing again in the predictable place.
Steven B , agreed on era, although I thought 1st class should always be at the front or rear or next to restaurant car?
I'm in the middle of making a very simple but visually stimulating layout where, without using dcc, you'll never guess what train is coming from where. An easy design, track wise, but will probably be be a bugger to wire?

martyn · October 22, 2018, 05:36:54 PM

I don't know the answer for Cross-Country sets, but at least in more recent times, and at least as early as the 60s, 1st Class was usually marshalled at the London end of the train, though possibly with a brake second or brake composite as end vehicle, though brake first also exist. Frequently, the buffet/dining car would be the next vehicle away from London after the first section. It is also noted that at lest on a number of Liverpool St-Norwich (and other workings from Liverpool St) that there were sometimes no full first coaches, but a number of composites at the London end of the train.

Check photos and other websites!

Martyn

Invicta Alec · October 22, 2018, 06:06:08 PM

Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
...................................
Go ahead punk, make my day...

What?

Alec.

woodbury22uk · October 22, 2018, 06:43:10 PM

Don't forget that trains of ballast hoppers often have/had Shark brake vans at both ends. There are still some modern freight trains with a brake at the ends where long propelling moves are involved. The vehicles may not be conventional brake vans, but provide a way for the brake to be controlled from that vehicle and for somebody to ride on/in it safely whist doing so.

The Q · October 22, 2018, 06:57:57 PM

Try the former Highland railway lines, you could have some mark 1s followed by some freights fitted or unfitted followed by a brake van. This continued well into diesel days.

In highland railways time they were probably the last railway to have unfitted freights between the loco and the carriages..

As for circular railways the roundy roundy is popular how often you can change trains depends on your number of tracks in the fiddle yard. I've seen layouts with problems having to run a circulating single train while someone was underneath doing repairs..

Lawrence · October 22, 2018, 07:20:05 PM

Rule 1 applies

That is all!

Newportnobby · October 22, 2018, 09:32:23 PM

Quote from: Invicta Alec on October 22, 2018, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
...................................
Go ahead punk, make my day...

What?

Alec.

A paraphrase of Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry @Invicta Alec

InsaneSociety · October 22, 2018, 10:45:35 PM

Quote from: martyn on October 22, 2018, 05:36:54 PM1st Class was usually marshalled at the London end of the train, though possibly with a brake second or brake composite as end vehicle, though brake first also exist. Frequently, the buffet/dining car would be the next vehicle away from London after the first section.

Just the confirmation I was looking for, many thanks Martyn.

railsquid · October 23, 2018, 08:12:23 AM

The beauty of the internet is that it makes it possible to find prototypes for all kinds of combinations of vehicles which would normally be written off as implausible.

Quote from: InsaneSociety on October 22, 2018, 02:33:25 PM
But here is my question for modellers who go for the extra realism, - how should a rake of Mk 1 coaches be formed behind a loco? It would be interesting to hear your opinions so here is the task, - It is an 8 or 10 coach formation and must include a buffet or restaurant car.

Which era? What kind of locomotive? Somewhere I've seen a picture of a steam locomotive (possibly "Flying Scotsman") at the head of a rake of InterCity-liveried Mk1s. The possibilities are endless.