To pull or not to pull? That is the question

Started by Newportnobby, August 22, 2017, 03:45:33 PM

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Bealman

For once, I'm being serious.

Put a train behind a Jinty that you're happy with.

Then, one behind an A4 that you're happy with.

George ;D
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

nabber

The BR Coaching Stock Yahoo group:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info
has lots of carriage working notices, that list the make up of passenger trains - but not necessarily the locos that hauled them.

For London Midland Region, two good books are:
Operation Midland
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Midland-Services-Carriage-Ex-Midland/dp/1901056287
Lots of details of the express workings on the ex Midland lines in 1955, plus comments that give you clues about other times.
(Seems to be out of print, and only occasionally pops up at a reasonable price)

Midland Main Lines to St Pancras and Cross Country
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Midland-Lines-Pancras-Cross-Country/dp/1473885574
Covers the same area, over 1957-1963 period. Lots of details about the changing locomotives in use year-by-year over that period, with the change from steam to mainly diesel. Not cheap, but a lot of detailed information. Together with the Yahoo group, you can have a pretty good go at matching locos to trains.

One of these 2 has a table of loco class, vs maximum load, vs timings (express, special etc)

This whole series of books tend to be cheap:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Midland-Steam-East-Midlands/dp/0851532071
and have a lot of photos that cover the whole train.
The series seems to cover most of the country.

Neil

dodger

Some information from the memory bank for what its worth!

Some of the Oakwood book on Southern coaching stock give sample train formations. The Royal Wessex was a 13 coach formation with 5  BSK CK CK SK BSK for Weymouth, 2 BSK CK for Swanage and 6 BSK FK RFO RK RSO BSK for Bournemouth West.

In the mid 1970's the Westbury - Paddington was also a 13 coach formation. Most Western Region inter City seats were 9 or 10 coach formations.

From memory the Western rated the load capacity of the class 47 at 505 tons and class 52 at 525 tons, or vice versa.

To answer a specific question by NPN I have seen photos of Class 2-6-2T Ivatt and BR hauling 6 coach trains on Kent locals and the Exmouth branch.

Didn't the Midlands - London coal trains load to 70 or 80 wagons in the 50's.

Dodger             

silly moo

I only noticed recently that some current mainline steam hauled trains have a diesel tagged on at the end. I think a lot of people who film them edit the film so you don't see the diesel at the end.

After seeing the diesels I asked on the forum as to the reason and added to my knowledge, it just goes to show that you never stop learning. 

martyn

#19
NPN;

To go back to your original post-would a class 24 take 40 16t wagons-it should be able to, depending upon the route, (but it might have difficulty stopping them if they are unbraked on a downgrade); how many would an Ivatt tank take-what working is it on? A branch line would be 2-3 coaches, but a suburban train might be eight.

The loads that you have given in your second post are very close to reality; as has been pointed out, websites/groups exist with authentic formations, and Bealman has a very good point! Express steam era trains tended to be heavier and slower than diesel-hauled ones; I think it was deliberate policy to run lighter, faster trains after diesels took over ('vitesse commercial'-see 'I tried to run a railway' by G Feinnes). I'm not sure, but I also think that BR realised they had seriously underestimated the horse power required by their new diesels to run the proposed services. I'm sure that the ex LNER and LMS Pacifics (and probably the SR as well) were capable of putting in excess of 2000hp at the rail; the 40's and Peaks which replaced them only had this hp at the crankshaft, not the rail. Hence (again) G Feinnes decision to built the Deltics..........

Sadly, even in N gauge, most of us do not have the room to run a full service of authentic formations; my own layout has selected correct formations, but not for all trains, and especially not for goods, which varied as to the amount of traffic offered on a particular day.

Martyn

nabber

Quote from: nabber on August 23, 2017, 12:16:52 PM
One of these 2 has a table of loco class, vs maximum load, vs timings (express, special etc)
Found it - Operation Midland
For St Pancras to Leicester - loads and timings. There are 4 categories:

Ordinary Express
4P - 11 coaches, 5MT - 12 coaches, 5XP - 14 coaches, 7P - 16 coaches
120 minutes start to stop

Limited Load
4P - 9 coaches, 5MT - 11 coaches, 5XP - 12 coaches, 7P - 14 coaches
118 minutes start to stop

Special Limit
4P - 8 coaches, 5MT - 10 coaches, 5XP - 11 coaches, 7P - 13 coaches
110 minutes start to stop

XL Limit
4P - 7 coaches, 5MT - 8 coaches, 5XP - 9 coaches, 7P - 10 coaches
95 minutes start to stop

Anything over this would require a pilot engine.
There's a comment somewhere in the book that allowed loads for Manchester-Derby were 1 coach less, because of the tougher terrain.

Newportnobby

Quote from: dodger on August 23, 2017, 02:52:59 PM

From memory the Western rated the load capacity of the class 47 at 505 tons and class 52 at 525 tons, or vice versa.
             

That is exactly the info needed for any of us to follow the prototype so is there a source for such, I wonder?
Just for info the class 24 and Ivatt 2-6-2T were examples plucked at random and so not specific enquiries.

Quote from: silly moo on August 23, 2017, 03:38:57 PM
I only noticed recently that some current mainline steam hauled trains have a diesel tagged on at the end. I think a lot of people who film them edit the film so you don't see the diesel at the end.

After seeing the diesels I asked on the forum as to the reason and added to my knowledge, it just goes to show that you never stop learning. 

I always believed it was to fry the chips for the buffet car, Veronica :-X
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jr0hzxxevpk6ip/Galatea%20on%20%27Fellsman%27%2027.5.15.MOV?dl=0

That's some interesting and helpful info from Nabber.

Thanks again

scottmitchell74

#22
Quote from: BoxTunnel on August 23, 2017, 02:20:01 AM
Great question NPN, and one that is perplexing me being new to the game.

I too immediately start counting wagons/coaches on every layout I see - I blame the Count on Sesame Street when I was a young 'un.

During a very brief career as a cook (I could not claim to be a "chef"), it seems that odd numbers are more pleasing to the eye than even numbers.  For example we would never put two scallops on a plate, it would either be one biggun or three smaller.  Similar with the dressing - we worked in triangles rather than straight lines or rectangles.

This is so ingrained in me that I must have the TV or radio volume on an odd number!
On the PC I am typing this on, the volume is set to 51 - I've just checked!

Graham, thinking that OCD should actually be CDO, just so that the letters are in alphabetical order.


:goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes:

I can't tell you what it means to me to read this. I Do This!! TV volume, radio volume, when I punch numbers into the microwave, anything like that. It made me emotional to read that. I, too, hate even numbers. I've never really known why. I love stats. Football, baseball, basketball, track & field, whatever...and I love when the stats end in odd numbers. I'm always looking at license plates, calorie counts, numbers in the Church bulletin, whatever. Numbers!

My wife has her Masters in Counseling Psychology. She's not a Dr., so she can't diagnose, but one day some years ago, after a conference about people on the Autism Spectrum, she had an epiphany..."Scottie must be on the Spectrum!" Mind you, low on the Spectrum, very high functioning, and not very noticeable to most people. Most people just think "quirky" or something like that.

I have since read and learned a lot about Asperger's/Autism. Some thoughts:

Numbers
Rules
Order
Ritual
Sensations (or aversion to)
other things, of course...

but the coup de grace for me?

Trains! So many people on the Autism Spectrum love trains.

Anyhow, this thread is fascinating!

Spend as little as possible on what you need so you can spend as much as possible on what you want.

dannyboy

#23
@scottmitchell74 
Very interesting Scotty. I have always had a fascination with numbers. Mum used to say that I was born with a pencil and paper in my hand and should have been a statistician! I think M/S Excel is a brilliant programme, as I can play around with numbers for hours. I once created a spreadsheet that had about 100 rows and about 400 columns - and they all did what I wanted them to do  :thumbsup:. In rural Ireland, most of the roads have a plate every now and then showing the road number - I have to add the digits up even though I know the result as I drive past the same ones every day  :(., and I do the same with car number plates  :hmmm:.
David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.
If a friend seems distant, catch up with them.

scottmitchell74

#24
@dannyboy

Oh, man. That sounds SO familiar. Yep. I do it with road/highway signs. Anything, really. Interesting.

Now, I'm not saying every train enthusiast is like this, but I've noticed we are often similar in more ways that just our love of trains.

I can't remember if I brought it up in this forum, but I do know that there are groups/schools/homes that deal with children with special needs that go to train museums or places with trains and do therapy with kids that are more firmly on the Autism Spectrum.

Does anyone watch the American Sit-Com: The Big Ban Theory? It's never directly addressed, but one of the main characters (Sheldon Cooper) is very clearly somewhere on the Autism Spectrum, and among other things, he LOVES trains. Real train, model trains, Thomas the Train.  In one
episode he was excitedly showing someone an N-Scale loco (Looked like a Life-Like Sw1200, or something like that). Watch to see what made him so excited about it...Watch the last :20
  Watch the last :20.

And something I never noticed before...He called it N-Gauge!!!!!
:NGaugersRule:
Spend as little as possible on what you need so you can spend as much as possible on what you want.

dannyboy

David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.
If a friend seems distant, catch up with them.

Webbo

Great little clip, Scott

I too am a fan of the Big Bang Theory - not your normal sit-com by a long shot.

Webbo 

Bealman

Quote from: dannyboy on August 23, 2017, 09:50:25 PM
@scottmitchell74 
Very interesting Scotty. I have always had a fascination with numbers. Mum used to say that I was born with a pencil and paper in my hand and should have been a statistician! I think M/S Excel is a brilliant programme, as I can play around with numbers for hours. I once created a spreadsheet that had about 100 rows and about 400 columns - and they all did what I wanted them to do  :thumbsup:. In rural Ireland, most of the roads have a plate every now and then showing the road number - I have to add the digits up even though I know the result as I drive past the same ones every day  :(., and I do the same with car number plates  :hmmm:.

Reminds me of the constipated mathematician....

He worked it out with a pencil  :D
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Webbo

Quote from: Bealman on August 24, 2017, 02:16:23 AM

Reminds me of the constipated mathematician....

He worked it out with a pencil  :D

:thumbsdown: :'( :help:

tutenkhamunsleeping

Quote from: scottmitchell74 on August 23, 2017, 10:13:25 PM
Does anyone watch the American Sit-Com: The Big Ban Theory?

Absolutely.  An all-time comedy great IMO 8)

Every day I try to be a little more like Sheldon :D

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