N Gauge Forum

Hi

Just wondering how many of you have paid for yours up front ? Just out of curiosity, i'm surprised not to have seen a post about this yet.

Craig

I responded with a suggestion that he turn it into a fully fledged crowdfunded project and I await a response.

Hi ,
I declined as was not within my ability to fund at this stage still have order with rails for this and 23 but honestly I think Dave has moved on with OO stuff too vital to struggling a lifeline and with others paying the way on that the one man band schemes other than wagons look to be low down and N gauge whilst a part of his listings out of necessity.   

I wish Dave well and certainly the mermaids when made to run freely are very nice I await others but certainly not expecting anytime soon. Certainly Revolution trains have shown the way forward and IRM and its UK face Accuscale have shown a good model, the OO Irish models are quite brilliant and the bubble having been re done after the DJ split is super.

Robert   

I took the view that an up-front payment is the only way we're going to get the 17 in a reasonable time, so I've gone along with Dave's plan and will do the same for the 23 if he asks.

I have a pre-order at Hatton's. But I didn't pay anything yet.
I understand that the class 17 is on its way, even if it is a very slow way.
Was there some recent announcement from DJModels about funding this project ?

If I were DJModels, I would officially put on hold all other projects except the class 23 and some wagons expected to be successful. Then for the class 23 and the remaining wagons, I would switch to crowdfunded projects. I would be happy to sign in.
Another possibilty for DJModels is to open the company capital to shareholders to increase the amount of cash available for new projects. Some kind of crowdfunding but for the whole company. This could work since the OO products look great. But would it lead to enough cash ? I don't know.

Of course, I'm not DJModels. So it's easy to say.
Let's keep on crossing fingers.

Hi

After receiving the email I declined and cancelled my expression of interest/pre-order, although I can see the problems DJM face I am unwilling to pay for a model upfront at this time and would feel uneasy doing so.

I now have pre-orders at a retailer for the 17 and 23 and will wait until they arrive.

Looking at how things are going I would not be surprised if other items end up going the same way with full payment upfront, which I will not do, I would prefer them to become crowdfunded more and pay as progress is made or goals are reached.

Stuart 

Don't quote me on this and he didn't want me to photo them -but on his stand today at Stafford show -Dave and his wife had a grey prototype body shell which looked like a Clayton-he even had a photo of it running on a chassis on somebody's layout! But I'm not fully into Clayton so I could be wrong ? If somebody's going tomorrow-seek him out in room two (middle by the toilets ) and have a gander ! Prove I'm either stark raving or I do know what a Clayton looks like ???? :help:

He didn't want you to photograph it? What?

Got his own video off it -give him the credit its his model !  That's if it is a Clayton??

Hi at TINGS and Warley 2018 Dave had shown off  what was described as EP and it looked the part It was on a chassis but it was not clear if motorised so if running then some expensive progress completed.

Hopefully others have had confidence - the email had requested radio silence about it with note of the following Sunday publication on RM Web - not that a mass frothing has appeared in the DJ "small suppliers" pages and a quick look has not found it.  So perhaps funding sorted to the next stage. I am off to Stafford tomorrow so I will ask the good gent and report back.

Robert 

Quote from: Maurits71 on February 03, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
Dave Jones and looking after up front paid money is  :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no: :no:

Why do you say that?

Mark, google or search here on the forum and you do understand ;)

Quote from: Maurits71 on February 03, 2018, 08:24:09 PM
Mark, google or search here on the forum and you do understand ;)

Hi Mauritz 71,

Thanks for replying. I did search before I posted the question to you but didn't find anything relevant. Comments like the one you made are entirely reasonable if you have evidence to back them up and entirely unreasonable if you don't.

Please do explain. I'd genuinely like to know - I'm sure other forum members would as well.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark, it's not my job to be the devils advocate. DJ has a certain reputation and if you're long enough in this hobby you should be aware about this.

I do appreciate that everybody deserves a second change but it's my personal opinion which I am allowed to express, no need to defend my selves and it's even not needed to come up with all sorts of evidence, we are not in court here.

Everybody is entitled to make his own decision and for sure there are enough people who will trust Dave with money.

For me it simple, I have nothing against DJ, in fact I really hope that he delivers all the promised models and for sure I will buy them once they are available, but it will be a transaction in terms of you have something i want and I can see that you have it and I pay once you have given it to me.

and last thing it's Maurits with an S

I think Maurits is being a little unfair.

Dave has made a bit of an industry of announcing models and not delivering them for years, he also gives a lot of misinformation and arbitrary deadlines which sail past. I like to think this is because he's woefully disorganised and is keen to please everyone, rather than anything more nefarious.

There is no evidence of Dave doing a runner with people's money, or anything similar.

He's very up front that he is basically operating on a shoestring and the profits from one project fund the next (hence extensive delays). You can decide if that's a company you want to loan your money to for an indefinite period before the model is delivered.

Hi
Saw the vid clip of the 17 on Dave`s phone on Sunday running up and down on a bit of straight track.
The model and two 3d prints on display with a pile of NQP OO models. Dave did note that he had sold less than 50% of dutch mermaids and the APT in N a low take up he quoted 11 to 1 in favour of the OO model!  His general view was N was in a bad way compared to OO.  Take that as you will - clearly being commercially sensitive he did not say how many and how much had been raised on his email plea but did say roundly 150 had not replied.
Robert 

Quote from: njee20 on February 05, 2018, 08:34:52 AM


There is no evidence of Dave doing a runner with people's money, or anything similar.

ask this to the people who ordered a tamper years ago.

but anyway, I have made my point really clear I think, everybody is entitled to make his er her's own decision. I will buy when available but I will not give him any money upfront, this is MY own personal decision.

As the spot lights are now on me as being the bad guy I think it's better that I leave it here as it is, If you feel that he's a very trust worthy person please do so, I have got my own opinion.

cheers.

M.

I think crowd funding will feature more and more in the future. With N gauge volumes being fairly low the risk to investment is relatively high and the return relatively low. You can't blame manufacturers, especially one man bands, for not planning large investments in new N gauge tooling. I was under the impression that the tooling was complete for the class 17 but it sounds like it might not be. Changing the means of funding part way through seems a bit odd but it probably just reflects the state of the market at the moment. You just can't afford to invest cash in a project if you aren't pretty sure of getting a healthy return on your investment. Crowd funding of course takes away that risk.

I have no interest in a class 17 (even though they look cute) but I will be happy to pay cash up front to get the tooling started for Dave's king when asked. The success or failure of the King project may well be pivotal to the future of new N gauge models.

Quote from: Maurits71 on February 05, 2018, 08:44:48 AM

Quote from: njee20 on February 05, 2018, 08:34:52 AM


There is no evidence of Dave doing a runner with people's money, or anything similar.

ask this to the people who ordered a tamper years ago.

but anyway, I have made my point really clear I think, everybody is entitled to make his er her's own decision. I will buy when available but I will not give him any money upfront, this is MY own personal decision.

As the spot lights are now on me as being the bad guy I think it's better that I leave it here as it is, If you feel that he's a very trust worthy person please do so, I have got my own opinion.

Not my intention at all Maurits, N'Thusiast do certainly have history, perhaps I should have said "DJ Models haven't done a runner with anyone's money"!

I was one of the people who ordered the tamper, and would not give any money up front to this person again. So, lets leave it at that.

My personal opinion of the DJM models situation is that they have lots of projects "in progress" and, 'pro-rata', not many coming off the other end.

Revolution have a few projects "in progress" and in relation to that they have a high proportion of completed projects.

I think your average Joe would be more comfortable and supportive of DJM if there were less projects on the go, better updates on progress - even if its just "project x is still in tooling development", and a more consistent business model rather than pre-orders then crowd funding then whatever next. It gives the impression of a shambolic company that's struggling.

I really want DJM to succeed, I desperately want a decent N gauge J94. If he wants better support he needs to be clearer about the business and progress and communicate better.

Hi everyone,

Just popped by to clarify a couple of things and post the update i posted on another forum a few minutes ago..

1) i never stop anyone taking photographs of my models and it's not in my interest to do so. The 92's and 17's etc were photographed a lot over the weekend with me often stopping the turntables they were on and letting people not only take their shots, but manhandle them, and pose them for the best angles.

2) The class 17 in all it's guises (in the last 2 years) shown since i got them are ALL plastic from the tooling. I have never had a class 17 in 3D printed format except the orange plastic version shown with the orange plastic class 23 at TINGS many years ago.

N gauge sales do not match OO by a large margin and, it seems to be getting worse. Obviously there are cases in point against that, with the Farish class 40 (of which i have 2) but certainly N gauge is nowhere near the sales strength of OO gauge and hasnt been close ever.

However as it's my gauge of choice i support it and will continue to do so.

anyway, onto the posting and the link....................... no doubt some will still say its a 3D print and industrial light and magic have been employed to digitally move the engine on the layout. lol

cheers
Dave
------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone,

Just a couple of things by means of an update on the progress of the N gauge class 17 to production, and a small video.

Video first....... https://youtu.be/hcqQPjy7zdw

It's of the motorised first EP, which made it's debut at TINGS 2017, running on a layout this last weekend at Stafford show 2018.

Secondly, a progress report....

I wrote to all potential customers (over 200 of them) 10 days ago, with a proposal, and those of you who are they, and are reading this will know of it.

To put it bluntly, i explained that cash flow to go to second EP and production was almost impossible at the moment due to being spread thinly financially. Please note this is not to say the business is destitute, but having the extra to pay for the remaining tooling to high definition wasn't on the cards until later this year.

So i asked the 'expressors' if they would like to pay for their models up front, as by doing so, the model could be developed further with 2nd EP tooling being done (please remember i had already paid 50% of the tooling myself on the project to get it to the stage you see in the video). By doing so, the 'expressor' would then get their model at the advertised DJM 'expressions of interest' price, and i would throw in free postage too, and as such they would avoid all subsequent price rises imposed by China in the last few years.

So, 'expressors' wrote back, and although some had had their circumstances change, or even changed gauges, eras etc, i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

If you have not responded, and do not want the model, please mail me and say so, and i'll remove you from my list for this model as i do not need to keep your details on file. If you still want the loco but don't wish to pay up front, then please by all means sit tight, and i'll be invoicing you when it's ready for delivery.

So when is delivery? OK, as you know and can see, the 1st EP is done, and has been done for many months, as i said it debuted at TINGS 2017, and has been on show at Warley etc, and been tested in the meantime to make sure it is reliable and robust.

Going to 2nd EP tooling will start almost immediately, or at least preparations will as CNY is coming upon us and not a lot happens in the 3 or so weeks of shut down and start up.

2nd EP tooling means that the tool is locked down to have all the fine detail added, the glazing tool gets polished to allow for clear glazing, and a further EP sample (working) is delivered to me for final tests, along with painted samples for approval.

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

Thanks to all who took the leap to allow this to continue and finish this year.

Cheers
Dave

On behalf of the NGF team can I say thank you for coming on here to help clarify the situation, much appreciated.

good of Dave to supply this much needed update. Hopefully enough of a leap that the model will make TINGS 2018. I look forward to the smoke generator fitted one - it does not need a speaker as engines not running !! Unless you want the faint sounds of swearing traincrew !!

Robert

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
Hi everyone,

Just popped by to clarify a couple of things and post the update i posted on another forum a few minutes ago..

1) i never stop anyone taking photographs of my models and it's not in my interest to do so. The 92's and 17's etc were photographed a lot over the weekend with me often stopping the turntables they were on and letting people not only take their shots, but manhandle them, and pose them for the best angles.

2) The class 17 in all it's guises (in the last 2 years) shown since i got them are ALL plastic from the tooling. I have never had a class 17 in 3D printed format except the orange plastic version shown with the orange plastic class 23 at TINGS many years ago.

N gauge sales do not match OO by a large margin and, it seems to be getting worse. Obviously there are cases in point against that, with the Farish class 40 (of which i have 2) but certainly N gauge is nowhere near the sales strength of OO gauge and hasnt been close ever.

However as it's my gauge of choice i support it and will continue to do so.

anyway, onto the posting and the link....................... no doubt some will still say its a 3D print and industrial light and magic have been employed to digitally move the engine on the layout. lol

cheers
Dave
------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone,

Just a couple of things by means of an update on the progress of the N gauge class 17 to production, and a small video.

Video first....... https://youtu.be/hcqQPjy7zdw

It's of the motorised first EP, which made it's debut at TINGS 2017, running on a layout this last weekend at Stafford show 2018.

Secondly, a progress report....

I wrote to all potential customers (over 200 of them) 10 days ago, with a proposal, and those of you who are they, and are reading this will know of it.

To put it bluntly, i explained that cash flow to go to second EP and production was almost impossible at the moment due to being spread thinly financially. Please note this is not to say the business is destitute, but having the extra to pay for the remaining tooling to high definition wasn't on the cards until later this year.

So i asked the 'expressors' if they would like to pay for their models up front, as by doing so, the model could be developed further with 2nd EP tooling being done (please remember i had already paid 50% of the tooling myself on the project to get it to the stage you see in the video). By doing so, the 'expressor' would then get their model at the advertised DJM 'expressions of interest' price, and i would throw in free postage too, and as such they would avoid all subsequent price rises imposed by China in the last few years.

So, 'expressors' wrote back, and although some had had their circumstances change, or even changed gauges, eras etc, i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

If you have not responded, and do not want the model, please mail me and say so, and i'll remove you from my list for this model as i do not need to keep your details on file. If you still want the loco but don't wish to pay up front, then please by all means sit tight, and i'll be invoicing you when it's ready for delivery.

So when is delivery? OK, as you know and can see, the 1st EP is done, and has been done for many months, as i said it debuted at TINGS 2017, and has been on show at Warley etc, and been tested in the meantime to make sure it is reliable and robust.

Going to 2nd EP tooling will start almost immediately, or at least preparations will as CNY is coming upon us and not a lot happens in the 3 or so weeks of shut down and start up.

2nd EP tooling means that the tool is locked down to have all the fine detail added, the glazing tool gets polished to allow for clear glazing, and a further EP sample (working) is delivered to me for final tests, along with painted samples for approval.

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

Thanks to all who took the leap to allow this to continue and finish this year.

Cheers
Dave

Dave

Email responded to, looking forward to TINGS  :)

Quote from: Busybee on February 05, 2018, 09:45:33 AM
I was one of the people who ordered the tamper, and would not give any money up front to this person again. So, lets leave it at that.

I have to say this is a rather alarming revelation that I was completely unaware of - thanks for posting both yourself and Maurits. It doesn't change my position of waiting to see what actually turns up, what quality it is (in particular the mechanism) given this is a new venture.

It does bring up the question of how covered you are if any pre-order/crowdfund company falls over - does paying by credit card offer any better protection (assuming the purchase is over £100)?

Cheers,
Alan

Setting DJ aside for a moment,

Crowdfunding through a Kickstarter or an Indegogo is a punt.  The safety net if any is the pre-vet by the crowdfunder and the "all funded or no funding" model if there is one, ensuring the project is fully funded before the monies are collected.  The Crowdfunders take a descent cut for this but it works and a very high proportion of these projects succeed. There is always the danger of funders changing their mind so proper crowdfunders take credit card details when there is a commitment to buy and exercise them when the project is funded.

The model works but is not a guarantee.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 05, 2018, 11:06:09 AM
Setting DJ aside for a moment,

Crowdfunding through a Kickstarter or an Indegogo is a punt.  The safety net if any is the pre-vet by the crowdfunder and the "all funded or no funding" model if there is one, ensuring the project is fully funded before the monies are collected.  The Crowdfunders take a descent cut for this but it works and a very high proportion of these projects succeed. There is always the danger of funders changing their mind so proper crowdfunders take credit card details when there is a commitment to buy and exercise them when the project is funded.

The model works but is not a guarantee.

I invested (although donated is a better word i think) to the Tiko 3D printer project that was through 'kickstarter', it was probably the best supported kickstarter campaign to date and of the 200k they wanted they got around 3m!!

But gross mismanagement, not knowing how to deal with the Chinese etc meant that they blew through the money very quickly. Then they lied to us all by saying the product was ready for dispatch and that they needed shipping money (which, to be fair we know about) and got a further 800k for the shipping, which was 'ring fenced' according  to the Tiko guys, but they used it to prop up the company.

Rumours abound about houses purchased etc, and Kickstarter doesnt have a repayment scheme and have kept quiet on the whole thing despite taking a healthy wodge to 'run' the campaign.

Tiko closed their doors late last year and its now in the hand of the receivers.
I say all this to back up and explain the situation noted above ...... its a punt. Simple as that. It's how much you trust the person to deliver at the end of the day.

Going into a little history for everyone here too, i ran nthusiast resprays, and when i was offered the Dapol job, i was open about how the tamper and a couple of other projects were holding me down, and gave an undertaking to George Smith that i would pay everyone i owed.

however at the time, i had lost my database of orders in the move and subsequent break up of my marriage, so i knew i owed but not to whom.

Luckily, most got in contact with me through my last employer and through shows i attended, and i put those right.
Strangely enough, despite my profile, there are some out there who i know not, that have not contacted me, even right through to today, as i would also put that right too.
Mind you, at Warley i had a tamper customer come up to me and quite rightly 'had a go' at me, and was rather stunned that explained the situation and refunded him on the spot!

I have never run away from my obligations, i just have no way of contacting individuals to sort any situation out.
If you are owed by me from my enthusiast days, why not mail me?
it's not that i've gone anywhere and hid or have disappeared is it?

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) so are you within 15 loco's of kicking this off or 15 multiple orders ?

If your target is met and it's a goer i will come and pick mine up at TINGS, 700 mile round trip btw. Once you confirm the above and i pay you, which i will this morning if you can confirm.

Craig

Dave
PM sent
Robert

Quote from: Dalek on February 05, 2018, 11:31:19 AM

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) so are you within 15 loco's of kicking this off or 15 multiple orders ?

If your target is met and it's a goer i will come and pick mine up at TINGS, 700 mile round trip btw. Once you confirm the above and i pay you, which i will this morning if you can confirm.

Craig

Hi Craig,

The more the merrier obviously, but yes 14 now (thanks Robert) individual locomotives.

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 12:03:31 PM

Quote from: Dalek on February 05, 2018, 11:31:19 AM

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) so are you within 15 loco's of kicking this off or 15 multiple orders ?

If your target is met and it's a goer i will come and pick mine up at TINGS, 700 mile round trip btw. Once you confirm the above and i pay you, which i will this morning if you can confirm.

Craig

Hi Craig,

The more the merrier obviously, but yes 14 now (thanks Robert) individual locomotives.

Cheers
Dave

That number will reduce in a moment, I'm going to send you an email @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)
Might we worth just continuing the countdown till the target is met, at least them we have some comfort knowing how far away the goal is ?

Craig

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) , do you have any more videos of the class 17 in action. The one you have posted shows it running at quite hight speed, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see how well it runs at slower speeds.

Seeing more of the model in action may help persuade a few more of the doubters to pay up front.

Steven B.

The DJM King class crowdfunder is something I expressed an interest in from the start, and I still want 2  of them.

I think it is healthy for us to have DJM alongside Bachmann and Dapol. I along with others have put faith in him to deliever. I haven't parted with any money merely expressed an interest. There will be stage payments to be made once the model is progressing. DJM has spent the money so far on the King project.

His future as a producer will depend on delivering a quality product in a fair and square manner. If he were to fail to do so he will be crucified in this internet/forum led World we now live in. 

Bachmann have some extensive time spans between announcing a model at it appearing. When it does appear it can be considerably higher in cost than the annoument price. I also have misgivings about the need for the level of their price increases.

If you were to compare DJM to Bachmann it's like David and Goliath, yet DJM pro-rata seems to get a heck of a lot more flack than the massive Bachmann/Kadar organisation.

If your mind is made up about DJM then that's it, it's made.  Personally I think he should be cut some slack and lets see what he comes up with. He's a one man band, not a multi national with eyewatering funds to invest.

Hi everyone,

Down to 3 customers required to go to 2nd ep tooling and production needed now.

I was going to do a countdown but orders overtook my ability to respond.

If your thinking of doing, but haven't or won't when it reaches what's needed, I would say 'dont' as a small slush fund for just in case is always welcome.

Cheers
Dave

Hi ,
Just to say you will see " thanks Robert" on the post from Dave at 12.01 today .
I have gifted the £100 owed from the Tamper story to the 17 fund.

This draws a line under the non supply of the tamper and  hopefully pushes it - as most of the claytons seem to have been at one time or another, nearer the shed!

Dave if you get "overfund" then the Shark could do with letting free on the layout as well
Robert     

Crikey, things have moved on rapidly here today.

@Maurits71 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1374) - apologies if I offended you. I wasn't looking for you to play devil's advocate or provide legal evidence, simply to justify or back up your original comment. I'm relatively new to the hobby and as such am much less knowledgeable and experienced than many regular contributors - I couldn't possibly know about events which happened many years ago.  I'm a big fan of this forum and visit frequently, but being completely non-partisan I do find some of the usubstantiated vitriol that periodically gets hurled at Dave Jones (and Dapol for that matter) tiresome, uneccessary and a poor reflection on what is an otherwise highly informative, friendly and enjoyable forum.   

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) - thanks for taking the time to provide such a full and open update and also comment on matters long past. Hopefully that will go some way to minimising any future negativity.   Delighted to read the 17 has had a good boost and is almost at the green light stage. Good luck.

Mark

Hi everyone,

I'm delighted to say that the class 17 has reached its total required and slightly surpassed it, this evening.

This means it can go into 2nd ep tooling once CNY is over, and I can also start getting painted samples done, including the Mercia weathered master.

It also means that the clear plastic locomotive box will also get tooled at the same time.
For those interested in these things, it's going to be the same size as the box used by Tomix for their locomotives with plenty of space for anything from a 47 to a 4-6-2 Pacific locomotive, so a jack of all trades box really.
There is also plenty of reserve space for accessory bags, spare wheels where the loco such as the 17 is fitted with traction tyres, instructions etc.
The box will then be covered , like the Farish boxes, in a printed card sleeve in DJM branded colours.

Many thanks to all who said yes, and if your still considering, or want to order afresh, please do so, as every little counts, and you will get your model and help me get a 'leg up' earlier that I had originally considered possible if it wasn't for your understanding.

Cheers
Dave

Great news Dave.  As one of the 50+ I await the invoice.
Colin

Does it count if you have ordered through a dealership?
Steve.

Quote from: xm607 on February 05, 2018, 11:25:54 PM
Does it count if you have ordered through a dealership?
Steve.

No this is for models direct from DJM, mentioned somewhere else on this thread.

Glad i asked now and dared to poke the bear  :angel: :)

Craig

DJM,

Really great news that you have passed the line, even better if further orders come through.

I'm pretty firmly into steam and have expressed an interest/desire for two King class. However, IMO the success of all/current DJMs projects will undoubtedly impact on future ones.

The model you would like could potentially be somewhere down the DJM line...

Baby Deltics will hopefully happen now after the Claytons ?   :thumbsup:
Maybe next year for them @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)  ?  :D

Craig

Quote from: Dalek on February 06, 2018, 08:19:06 AM
Baby Deltics will hopefully happen now after the Claytons ?   :thumbsup:
Maybe next year for them @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)  ?  :D

Craig

I'm living in hope ;D

Quote from: newportnobby on February 06, 2018, 10:25:31 AM

Quote from: Dalek on February 06, 2018, 08:19:06 AM
Baby Deltics will hopefully happen now after the Claytons ?   :thumbsup:
Maybe next year for them @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)  ?  :D

Craig

I'm living in hope ;D

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/3135-060218102822.png) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=61626)

Well I've just ordered myself a nice new Class 17 and volunteered to pay up front. Hopefully that's better for the N Gauge hobby than just slinging mud :thumbsup:

I'll be buying mine after Easter.

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)
I was never going to order these as they are completely outside my modelled location but am prepared to make an exception. However, I'd like a green + SYP weathered twin pack (powered + dummy) and there doesn't seem to be such an option. If it's planned could you add it to your website pre order page and I'll do the necessary and pay. Thanks.

Quote from: newportnobby on February 06, 2018, 02:39:22 PM
@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)
I was never going to order these as they are completely outside my modelled location but am prepared to make an exception. However, I'd like a green + SYP weathered twin pack (powered + dummy) and there doesn't seem to be such an option. If it's planned could you add it to your website pre order page and I'll do the necessary and pay. Thanks.

Interesting point but if you have been following Dapols recent comments that a dummy is only marginally less to produce than a powered one you might follow my lead by buying a powered model and strip out the motor for your spares box.  Over the last few years I have found myself using most of these salvaged motors swapped out with motors in poorer runners, and the supply modern locos spares wont last forever.

Nice idea but I don't pull things apart so have no spares box and wouldn't know what to do with one if I did. I'd also have to re-number the second one, again something I'm not capable of. Lastly, Dave's pricing is eminently reasonable for a dummy whereas Dapol pitch theirs way too high IMO.

Quote from: newportnobby on February 06, 2018, 02:54:26 PM
Nice idea but I don't pull things apart so have no spares box and wouldn't know what to do with one if I did. I'd also have to re-number the second one, again something I'm not capable of. Lastly, Dave's pricing is eminently reasonable for a dummy whereas Dapol pitch theirs way too high IMO.

I started dismantling things when I was 3 and 55 years later  :D 8)  :laugh3:

Just checked and you can order

N Gauge N17-006T D8574 BR Blue (powered) + D8583 BR Blue (dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95
N Gauge N17-007T D8616 BR Green SYWP (powered) + D8561 BR Green SYWP (Dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95

so happy days. :beers:

Aye. But I can also purchase N17-005 powered green SYP weathered but there's no dummy to go with it. As a general rule I always prefer to buy the weathered version of a loco.

I'm very good at dismantling stuff. It's the putting it back together I find impossible :-[

I just had an email from Dave re fitting DCC and sound chips, and I quote:

"The sound decoder goes in the fuel tank, simply plug in, and a sugar cube speaker will go in the cab."  :thumbsup:

In the dummy will be room for a dcc smoke unit as well !!!

Robert

Quote from: robert shrives on February 06, 2018, 04:02:48 PM
In the dummy will be room for a dcc smoke unit as well !!!

Robert

If you use a CT Electronic decoder you don't need a separate smoke unit  :goggleeyes:

Quote from: newportnobby on February 06, 2018, 02:39:22 PM
@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)
I was never going to order these as they are completely outside my modelled location but am prepared to make an exception. However, I'd like a green + SYP weathered twin pack (powered + dummy) and there doesn't seem to be such an option. If it's planned could you add it to your website pre order page and I'll do the necessary and pay. Thanks.

:thankyousign:

This is something is would also want if it was available. I have ordered the green twin pack and the weathered green loco on it's own, if the twin pack was also weathered that would be really good, no idea if this would be viable or not, only @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) can advise i guess. Given we have all given this a wee push over the line whats the chances Dave ?

Craig

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 06, 2018, 03:00:15 PM

Just checked and you can order


N Gauge N17-007T D8616 BR Green SYWP (powered) + D8561 BR Green SYWP (Dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95

That's unfortunate.  These little beasts had two different control systems depending on who built them.  8616 was Beyer Peacock built (blue star) and 8561 was Clayton (red diamond).  The only time they would have run together was when one had failed and was being dragged to works for attention by the other. (Which happened rather a lot with Class 17s.) 

Quote from: belstone on February 06, 2018, 05:55:54 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 06, 2018, 03:00:15 PM

Just checked and you can order


N Gauge N17-007T D8616 BR Green SYWP (powered) + D8561 BR Green SYWP (Dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95

That's unfortunate.  These little beasts had two different control systems depending on who built them.  8616 was Beyer Peacock built (blue star) and 8561 was Clayton (red diamond).  The only time they would have run together was when one had failed and was being dragged to works for attention by the other. (Which happened rather a lot with Class 17s.)

Yes, that's why ones a dummy   :D

Quote from: belstone on February 06, 2018, 05:55:54 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 06, 2018, 03:00:15 PM

Just checked and you can order


N Gauge N17-007T D8616 BR Green SYWP (powered) + D8561 BR Green SYWP (Dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95

That's unfortunate.  These little beasts had two different control systems depending on who built them.  8616 was Beyer Peacock built (blue star) and 8561 was Clayton (red diamond).  The only time they would have run together was when one had failed and was being dragged to works for attention by the other. (Which happened rather a lot with Class 17s.)

Perhaps this is something that would be worth dropping a PM to Dave about, in order he can possibly change the number before it's too late, if that's the case?

Quote from: belstone on February 06, 2018, 05:55:54 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 06, 2018, 03:00:15 PM
Just checked and you can order
N Gauge N17-007T D8616 BR Green SYWP (powered) + D8561 BR Green SYWP (Dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95

That's unfortunate.  These little beasts had two different control systems depending on who built them.  8616 was Beyer Peacock built (blue star) and 8561 was Clayton (red diamond).  The only time they would have run together was when one had failed and was being dragged to works for attention by the other. (Which happened rather a lot with Class 17s.)

A red-diamond and blue-star could be used together to haul a train but they'd each need a driver - just as with double heading a train with steam locos.


Steven B.

Quote from: Steven B on February 07, 2018, 09:21:52 AM

A red-diamond and blue-star could be used together to haul a train but they'd each need a driver - just as with double heading a train with steam locos.

Steven B.

I read last night that when Claytons were used in pairs on the Waverley Route they were often double-manned even when they had compatible control equipment, which probably wiped out the cost savings from dieselisation.  At the time (mid 1960s) British Rail was trying to make a financial case for closing the line.  Hmmm.

DJ invoices are out this morning, looking forward to progress.

Quote from: Lindi on February 08, 2018, 10:42:32 AM


That is what has been widely documented in books (and Wikipedia). When built they were all were red diamond, however a number were converted to blue star multiple working to allow them to work with other classes of locomotives. The only way to check is which type of multiple working thay had is through photographic evidence of the date/time you are modelling.

Thanks for that, happy to be corrected.  The Clayton saga just gets worse and worse.  Built with a non-standard MW system, then the expense of converting them to blue star, and scrapped shortly afterwards. Poor taxpayers :(

Richard

Having non-standard multiple working equipment (i.e. not the most common Blue-Star) isn't grounds for failure of a class:

A class 60 can only work in multiple with other class 60s. Similarly with class 50s. A class 56 could work in multiple with other clas 56s or a 58 but nothing else.

Some classes such as the Westerns and many/most of the class 47s were never fitted with multiple working equipment but managed a successful working life.

Steven B.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 09, 2018, 11:46:48 AM
DJ invoices are out this morning, looking forward to progress.

Got and paid mine  :bounce:

Craig

Received my invoice this afternoon and have paid also.
Looking forward to its rapid progress!

John D

The 1966 Combined Volume shows 8500-8587 as red diamond and 8588-8616 as blue star.

I think it was always thus.

I'm aware that most of the Class were allocated to Scotland & NE England but a few were allocated to the Sheffield area.

I can't find any reference to them working south of Sheffield to the East Midlands (Nottingham/Leicester/Derby etc.). Does anyone have info that suggest that they were seen this far south?

Quote from: Thorpe Parva on February 09, 2018, 04:13:00 PM
I'm aware that most of the Class were allocated to Scotland & NE England but a few were allocated to the Sheffield area.

I can't find any reference to them working south of Sheffield to the East Midlands (Nottingham/Leicester/Derby etc.). Does anyone have info that suggest that they were seen this far south?

Allocated to Barrow Hill, so would have ventured onwards to Toton i'd Have imagined, possibly a lot further afield than that too.
For example, the RTC one went to lime street, and was based in Winsford for a while, so if you can find a picture of one at 'derby your laughing I think.

Some were stored at Derby early on whilst being rectified at Claytons works, I believe.
Steve.

My pair paid for today as well

They are everywhere now, washing machines, dustbins, fridges etc  :smiley-laughing:

'British Rail fleet survey vol 4' by B Haresnape has a photo of at least five in St Andrew's yard, DERBY.

Unfortunately, they were stored before even being released to traffic, prior to investigation of faults.

I do remember seeing one in a private yard in Hemel Hempstead around 1974/75. I may even have a long lost photo somewhere.......

Martyn

I think Dave will need to provide some rub down transfers of red diamonds and blue stars and we can all add what we think is correct.  :)

Or Fox may be busy.....

Martyn

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 09, 2018, 11:46:48 AM
DJ invoices are out this morning, looking forward to progress.

Just paid mine. Definitely looking forward to this, even though not especially useful on my usual West Country layouts.  ;)

I've ordered the weathered one. I'm assuming that if he's using a Mercig master, it'll have a bit more than a blow-over with an airbrush.  :hmmm:

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 10, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
I think Dave will need to provide some rub down transfers of red diamonds and blue stars and we can all add what we think is correct.  :)

In some cases, where the control equipment was changed, the blue star was painted/decaled (not a word, I know) over the top of the red diamond! #prototypeforeverything

So now this is a goer.... who's doing the sound for one ?

Craig

Quote from: Dalek on February 10, 2018, 10:30:30 PM
So now this is a goer.... who's doing the sound for one ?

Craig

"Chinnor & Princes Risborough Railway has undertaken the recording of railway locomotives used on its line, and preparing a Loksound V4.0 chip using these recordings for sale to railway modellers using DCC and sound. The first three of these have been available for a number of months now. Recordings have been taken from GWR 1366 Class pannier, the BR 08 Vac only Diesel shunter D3018 "Haversham" and BR Class 17 Clayton D8511".

A micro Locksound chip should do it.

Wish I could find a 17 down Oxford way as I think they are quite cute.    ::)  :angel:

Quote from: Caz on February 11, 2018, 03:54:12 PM
Wish I could find a 17 down Oxford way as I think they are quite cute.    ::)  :angel:

Same here, I'm trying to find out if they ever made it to Leicester. So far it doesn't look like it as the Tinsley/Barrow Hill Locos appeared to either be out of service or on trip workings to local collieries. However I'm continuing to investigate. If no success then after the models are delivered maybe I'll look for an unpowered model on ebay and have it loco-hauled on it's way to the scrap yard!

Preserved running

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/rare-haulage-at-south-devons-diesel-gala/ (https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/rare-haulage-at-south-devons-diesel-gala/)

Gratuitous footage of my local Class 17, taken when visiting the Princes Risborough and Chinnor Railway last summer. It was here tailing a train fronted by a Pannier tank, hence the rather unusual (for a diesel) whistle part of the way through. Nonetheless, lots of nice Paxman music if that's your thing!



Strangely enough, this loco worked a few miles from where I live, up at the Hemelite works near Hemel Hempstead, where it was used for heavy shunting. Some time later it ended up working at Ribble Cement. But for this bizarre afterlife, this loco might never have made it into preservation.

Cheers, NeMo

Blimey, Neil. That sounds like a right old bag of spanners. No wonder they were unreliable beasties!

Quote from: newportnobby on February 12, 2018, 09:52:11 AM
Blimey, Neil. That sounds like a right old bag of spanners. No wonder they were unreliable beasties!

Indeed! But it's a regular performer at Chinnor, and by all accounts acquits itself well. Preventive maintenance is apparently in order with this class, and the DTG believe that this approach should have been taken by BR if they wanted to the class to behave itself. On the other hand, it's hardly overworked, and apparently works one-engine-only a lot of the time, making it very economical compared with standard big diesels.

Regardless, I can hear the definite whistle of the HST's Paxman 'Ventura' engines in the Class 17, particularly as it picks up speed.

By the way, the Chinnor railway is well worth a visit. As well as the ride out-and-back (which takes about an hour) there are some really good places to take photos, particularly this level crossing at the end of a short path. All the trains stop here, so the guard can open and close the crossing, making it easy to get these lovely close-up lineside shots. For sure there's not a huge variety of traction at Chinnor, but the 'Clayton' is literally unique, which more than makes up for the otherwise commonplace assortment of industrial tank engines and 08 shunters.

Cheers, NeMo

Fascinating story, @Lindi (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6298); thanks for sharing that.

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone have any idea how the DJM model will cope with Peco Setrack? I'm thinking of building a little layout with a Scottish theme for its benefit, and perforce this will require the use of tight curves and short points simply to fit on the 5' shelf available to it.

Cheers, NeMo

I'd have thought it would traverse 9" curves perfectly well, albeit with possibly a fair size overhang due to its length, but obviously I don't know that for sure and doubt even Dave does as his diesel bogies are an unknown quantity to us all :hmmm:

Quote from: NeMo on February 11, 2018, 06:52:22 PM
Gratuitous footage of my local Class 17, taken when visiting the Princes Risborough and Chinnor Railway last summer. It was here tailing a train fronted by a Pannier tank, hence the rather unusual (for a diesel) whistle part of the way through. Nonetheless, lots of nice Paxman music if that's your thing!

(sound of barrel being scraped)

My maternal grandparents lived in a house in Princes Risborough which backed onto the Chinnor line and seeing the trains trundle to/from to the Chinnor cement works was a regular feature of visits there (as were the 115s blarting their way to/from the general direction of Banbury on the other side of the house). I have vague memories of saying "hello" to the guard in the brake van (pretty sure there was a brake van) when it came to a halt there once. This would have been late 70s. Would that be a sufficiently tenuous connection to justify a 17?  :hmmm:

Quote from: railsquid on February 12, 2018, 03:07:21 PM
Would that be a sufficiently tenuous connection to justify a 17?  :hmmm:

Probably not, no.

But I believe that one wasn't accounted as Cashmore's scrap yard in Wales. Rumour has it that there was a mix-up with a retired Pullman coach that happened to have the same number. Imagine the surprise of the Japanese entrepreneur in Osaka who wound up with a clunky diesel instead of the luxury carriage he'd hoped to convert into a novelty sushi bar! No idea what happened to the loco after that. Perhaps someone else knows?  ;)

Cheers, NeMo

I have a class 17 kit with an Arnold chassis and that will cope with very tight curves.
But I dont know if that is a  correct scale model or adapted to fit the chassis.
Im not even sure what body kit it is I bought it ready painted and running from a layout at a show.That was a while ago when I was working now Im retired I cant afford luxuries any more.
Bob Tidbury

I currently have a Parkwood body on the Kato DD13 chassis.  The bonnets are a bit high mesning the cab windows are too low.  But good runner and looks fair. 

Quote from: Bob Tidbury on February 12, 2018, 04:01:54 PM
I have a class 17 kit with an Arnold chassis and that will cope with very tight curves.

Quote from: Portpatrick on February 12, 2018, 04:23:40 PM
I currently have a Parkwood body on the Kato DD13 chassis.

Thanks chaps! These both sound interesting kits. Any chance of some pics?

Cheers, NeMo

Thanks Portpatrick  I think mine is a  Parkwood body.
Bob Tidbury

[Thanks chaps! These both sound interesting kits. Any chance of some pics?

Cheers, NeMo
[/quote]

Attached a photo.  Taken on my phone so not brilliant.  It is only 8mp and I suffer from quite severe tremor which never helps.  The "kit" is a resin body .  I had buffers in stock.  The chassis is wired back to front, but I cannot see how to get it apart such that it will go the same way as everything else.  I slightly bevelled the moulding on the lower edge of the cab windows and painted the bevel black like the rest of the window.  This slightly mitigates the fact the bonnets are high  to clear the chassis and so cab windows are low.  I have been happy with the result and then Dave announced his RTR version.  I have 2 on order!

Oh, and while I applied the BR totem, I did not fancy trying to put numbers on it.

another attempt at adding the picture

No idea what is going on.  I click on add image to post.  Duly fill in the fields for adding a picture and click on add picture but the pictures is not being added to the post.  Can anyone explain please. 

Hi Nemo if you go on Utube search Bob Tidbury  you will find a clip of the Clayton pulling the Forum coach, and others of my layout .
I cant remember how to put a link Im an absolute idiot with technology.I cant even manage to put more photos in my media folder though many members have tried to show me.
Bob Tidbury

Quote from: Portpatrick on February 12, 2018, 07:59:43 PM
No idea what is going on.  I click on add image to post.  Duly fill in the fields for adding a picture and click on add picture but the pictures is not being added to the post.  Can anyone explain please.

Check you have a file type it can accept.  You should get a script added to your message like this with a couple more brackets.

"url=http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=60893][img width=600 height=800]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/3761-220118193514.jpeg[/img[/url"

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/61/479-120218201104.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=61831)


Hopefully this has done it.  Sure the process was as easy as adding to a Facebook post last time I did it.

Quote from: Bob Tidbury on February 12, 2018, 07:47:54 PM
Thanks Portpatrick  I think mine is a  Parkwood body.
Bob Tidbury

Good video Bob.  What colour did you use for the cab window surrounds.  Looks more realistic than the Sherwood Green I used on mine - bought it to correct the SYP on a Poole made class 47 on which the yellow was wrapped around the corners. And I have used a dirtier grey on the roof. John Hooper's book published by Book Law is a minefield of good stuff on this fascinating class.

There is one on Ebay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-KIT-BUILT-CLAYTON-CLASS-17-LOCOMOTIVE/263493150484?hash=item3d596a6714:g:7~0AAOSwMQhagZ91 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-KIT-BUILT-CLAYTON-CLASS-17-LOCOMOTIVE/263493150484?hash=item3d596a6714:g:7~0AAOSwMQhagZ91)

Quote from: Portpatrick on February 12, 2018, 08:12:08 PM
Hopefully this has done it.  Sure the process was as easy as adding to a Facebook post last time I did it.

Worked a charm. Certainly a well-made model. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers, NeMo

 :thankyousign: Lindi could you please find the clip.that shows the Clayton and the forum coach and post that one on here as that would be great.
Portpatrick sorry I dont know what colours were used on my Clayton I bought it R T R from Ian Stoat.
Bob Tidbury

 :thankyousign: Once again Lindi ,you will have to visit me and give me a days tuition on how to do this ,its no good just telling me Im such a dumbo I need to be shown several times before it might sink in .Then I would have to keep doing a post nearly every day otherwise I would forget.
By the way sorry for the jerking going from the branch to the main line this was caused by my mates shaky hand it was all done on the one controller so normally goes much smoother .
Bob Tidbury

As an aside it's good to see some footage of @Bob Tidbury (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3442) layout

Paid for mine,  class 17 D8555 BR Green SYWP

Glad to see DJ posting here and look forward to it.

Hi
Any updates   heard folks  as its gone quiet and  Chinese new year long gone

Robert

Quote from: robert shrives on March 06, 2018, 03:14:29 PM

Hi
Any updates   heard folks  as its gone quiet and  Chinese new year long gone

Robert

Chinese New Year just ended on Sunday, and from my days running factories out there real business wont start for another week or so yet.  Tho whole damn place just shuts for the best of four weeks and everyone goes home.

I suspect Dave will update us around Easter @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) even just to confirm everything is progressing as planned.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 06, 2018, 03:34:15 PM

Quote from: robert shrives on March 06, 2018, 03:14:29 PM

Hi
Any updates   heard folks  as its gone quiet and  Chinese new year long gone

Robert

Chinese New Year just ended on Sunday, and from my days running factories out there real business wont start for another week or so yet.  Tho whole damn place just shuts for the best of four weeks and everyone goes home.

I suspect Dave will update us around Easter @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) even just to confirm everything is progressing as planned.

thanks for that .

I thought Chinese New Year was February 16th - at least I went to a new year party that night.  The holiday may be for 4 or 6 days.  I hope they are all back at work by now!

Kung Hei Fat Choi.
Jon

Over here yes, but in China its like the French all going on holiday for most of August, its their big and their only annual holiday and most of the Chinese working population go home to see their families.  That's also why the Communist Party Congress is currently taking place

Employment contracts particularly for factory workers are renewed so you don't even know if your workforce will come back after the holidays.  We used to use these weeks for factory upgrades, new equipment installation and staff training, particularly new staff.

Hopefully things have improved since those days and the workers are now on long-term contracts and earning a decent wage.

Best regards,


Joe

Quote from: joe cassidy on March 06, 2018, 08:05:47 PM
Hopefully things have improved since those days and the workers are now on long-term contracts and earning a decent wage.

Best regards,


Joe

From my own experiences out there, I wouldn't put any money on that !

Quote from: koyli55002 on March 06, 2018, 08:10:41 PM

Quote from: joe cassidy on March 06, 2018, 08:05:47 PM
Hopefully things have improved since those days and the workers are now on long-term contracts and earning a decent wage.

Best regards,


Joe

From my own experiences out there, I wouldn't put any money on that !

:)

Quote from: joe cassidy on March 06, 2018, 08:05:47 PM
Hopefully things have improved since those days and the workers are now on long-term contracts and earning a decent wage.

In many areas yes - but it doesn't change the Chinese New Year. It's when lots of employees on long term contracts change employer often at very short notice.

Alan

@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)  any chance of a progress report please ?

Dalek--check the DJ website--Dave has a pdf showing progress on all his models.

Quote from: crepello on April 06, 2018, 05:24:01 PM
Dalek--check the DJ website--Dave has a pdf showing progress on all his models.

Thanks, just went for a look and the last update of that was 6th March

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78681-n-gauge-class-17-clayton-locomotive/page-10 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78681-n-gauge-class-17-clayton-locomotive/page-10)

I think a visit to a shrink is in order as I've just ordered a twin pack green SYP, and I model transition era in the Oxford area. :doh: It did seem odd to pay Rails of Sheffield up front for a pre order but I guess needs must when the devil drives, eh?

From Dave Jones...

QuoteI am conscious that there have been a couple of requests on this topic for an update on the progress of the Class 17 and crowdfunding investors will all be keen to have this too I am sure.

Regrettably it is not the news I had hoped to share, and things have not progressed to the plan I had envisaged. There have been difficulties which mean that I cannot progress this project at this time despite tooling having taken place on the model and payment made for the tooling under agreement with China.


If I was able to provide a revised timescale and believe I could deliver to it, I would leave it to investors to decide whether it would be acceptable to them, but as it is, I cannot do even that currently.

So, I have reached the conclusion, that as I cannot now promise delivery of the Class 17 models on the basis that those who funded up front were expecting, it would not be right to continue to hold their money. I will therefore be refunding all those who have "crowdfunded" this models 2nd EP tooling monies in full during the course of approximately the next 5-10 days.

I am sure you will all be disappointed as I am, but I feel this is the only fair way to deal with the situation. I am sure you will all appreciate that I personally find myself at this time out of pocket to the tune of a significant amount (before I even think about the time I have invested in research, design etc) but that is, rightly, my risk.

I am hopeful that the class 17 will go ahead though, but it now finds itself, unfortunately, a 'back burner item' at this time.





However, I have mitigated further risk by seeding various projects with a number of factories so as not to have all my eggs in a single basket.



The N gauge King and Class 92's are seeded with a factory that has many successful designs and manufacture that are well known UK modellers.

The King is moving on in leaps and bounds now and a first cad/cam has been received and checked and found to be a little too high and long (3 inches in length at 12 inches to the foot scale, for instance).



The 92's will follow the King into the tool room so that Autumn and winter of this year things are looking more productive than they have been for a long while now.



The APT is seeded with another factory and contracts have been granted for the design, tool and supply to this manufacturer who makes models for the USA market for a number of high profile companies there. This company will also be completing further N gauge models that will now start to move along the design and tooling to production line. This model will enter tooling once the cad/cam and testing on a scale mock up has been completed successfully.



The shark and mermaid wagons are with a third factory, and they will be commissioned with more wagons and perhaps locomotives as things progress.

Cheers
Dave Jones

Quote from: Tank on May 11, 2018, 06:48:11 PM
From Dave Jones...

QuoteI am conscious that there have been a couple of requests on this topic for an update on the progress of the Class 17 and crowdfunding investors will all be keen to have this too I am sure.

Regrettably it is not the news I had hoped to share, and things have not progressed to the plan I had envisaged. There have been difficulties which mean that I cannot progress this project at this time despite tooling having taken place on the model and payment made for the tooling under agreement with China.


If I was able to provide a revised timescale and believe I could deliver to it, I would leave it to investors to decide whether it would be acceptable to them, but as it is, I cannot do even that currently.

So, I have reached the conclusion, that as I cannot now promise delivery of the Class 17 models on the basis that those who funded up front were expecting, it would not be right to continue to hold their money. I will therefore be refunding all those who have "crowdfunded" this models 2nd EP tooling monies in full during the course of approximately the next 5-10 days.

I am sure you will all be disappointed as I am, but I feel this is the only fair way to deal with the situation. I am sure you will all appreciate that I personally find myself at this time out of pocket to the tune of a significant amount (before I even think about the time I have invested in research, design etc) but that is, rightly, my risk.

I am hopeful that the class 17 will go ahead though, but it now finds itself, unfortunately, a 'back burner item' at this time.





However, I have mitigated further risk by seeding various projects with a number of factories so as not to have all my eggs in a single basket.



The N gauge King and Class 92's are seeded with a factory that has many successful designs and manufacture that are well known UK modellers.

The King is moving on in leaps and bounds now and a first cad/cam has been received and checked and found to be a little too high and long (3 inches in length at 12 inches to the foot scale, for instance).



The 92's will follow the King into the tool room so that Autumn and winter of this year things are looking more productive than they have been for a long while now.



The APT is seeded with another factory and contracts have been granted for the design, tool and supply to this manufacturer who makes models for the USA market for a number of high profile companies there. This company will also be completing further N gauge models that will now start to move along the design and tooling to production line. This model will enter tooling once the cad/cam and testing on a scale mock up has been completed successfully.



The shark and mermaid wagons are with a third factory, and they will be commissioned with more wagons and perhaps locomotives as things progress.

Cheers
Dave Jones

That's a shame, but if he has a factory not up to it then this is the best way to handle it.

So what exactly is the problem with the Clayton?
The tooling has clearly moved to a second EP.  Does the chassis not work?  It can't be a lack of money because the crowdfunders stumped up.  Would Dave sell the tooling and allow someone else to progress the project? Did I buy Mermaids in vain, believing that was helping cash flow?
I'd certainly buy several of them, (not quite as many as I saw, when they were lined up in Kingmoor yard waiting for the chop) but enough.
Intrigued...

Pete @ EGLM

Quote from: Pete @ EGLM on May 11, 2018, 10:53:55 PM
So what exactly is the problem with the Clayton?
The tooling has clearly moved to a second EP.  Does the chassis not work?  It can't be a lack of money because the crowdfunders stumped up.  Would Dave sell the tooling and allow someone else to progress the project? Did I buy Mermaids in vain, believing that was helping cash flow?
I'd certainly buy several of them, (not quite as many as I saw, when they were lined up in Kingmoor yard waiting for the chop) but enough.
Intrigued...

Pete @ EGLM

On another thread on RMWeb the Class 74 in 00 gauge has been cancelled because the contractor in China did not deliver although they had been paid up front. May be the same contractor for the Clayton.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 11, 2018, 11:13:13 PM

Quote from: Pete @ EGLM on May 11, 2018, 10:53:55 PM
So what exactly is the problem with the Clayton?
The tooling has clearly moved to a second EP.  Does the chassis not work?  It can't be a lack of money because the crowdfunders stumped up.  Would Dave sell the tooling and allow someone else to progress the project? Did I buy Mermaids in vain, believing that was helping cash flow?
I'd certainly buy several of them, (not quite as many as I saw, when they were lined up in Kingmoor yard waiting for the chop) but enough.
Intrigued...

Pete @ EGLM

On another thread on RMWeb the Class 74 in 00 gauge has been cancelled because the contractor in China did not deliver although they had been paid up front. May be the same contractor for the Clayton.

That's my understanding.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 11, 2018, 11:13:13 PM

Quote from: Pete @ EGLM on May 11, 2018, 10:53:55 PM
So what exactly is the problem with the Clayton?
The tooling has clearly moved to a second EP.  Does the chassis not work?  It can't be a lack of money because the crowdfunders stumped up.  Would Dave sell the tooling and allow someone else to progress the project? Did I buy Mermaids in vain, believing that was helping cash flow?
I'd certainly buy several of them, (not quite as many as I saw, when they were lined up in Kingmoor yard waiting for the chop) but enough.
Intrigued...

Pete @ EGLM

Reading on another forum the guess there is that Dave, despite having paid the factory, may not currently have access to the tooling.

If so, he would not be the first (or indeed only current) manufacturer in this position.

For my part although I would have loved to have had Class 17s running n Hawthorn Dene at Warley this year I have to live with the decision and await the refund. Meanwhile there are more mermaids and a shark to look forward to.

Les

Sad news indeed......
Was looking forward to my green pair - but full marks to DJ for his candour and fairness.

oh well it's not permanently cancelled is it? just delayed a while?

I have a pre order with a shop which I will leave in place. if the project goes totally crowd funded i might be up for that too depending on costs.


Tim

Just on the "back burner"

My refund for the direct order has arrived.

The one I have on pre-order with Sherwood Models remains on order as I've not paid anything towards this one.

Still plenty of stuff to look forward to- and Hawthorn Dene has bookings until November 2020 so my yet see a class 17 running....

Les

Quote from: Les1952 on May 13, 2018, 07:50:08 AM
Reading on another forum the guess there is that Dave, despite having paid the factory, may not currently have access to the tooling.

If so, he would not be the first (or indeed only current) manufacturer in this position.

So the suggestion is that the factory have not delivered the item and are holding the tooling ransom...? Seriously?

Quote from: njee20 on May 13, 2018, 09:14:48 PM

Quote from: Les1952 on May 13, 2018, 07:50:08 AM
Reading on another forum the guess there is that Dave, despite having paid the factory, may not currently have access to the tooling.

If so, he would not be the first (or indeed only current) manufacturer in this position.

So the suggestion is that the factory have not delivered the item and are holding the tooling ransom...? Seriously?

Presumably to ensure they get the business when the project is resumed. :censored: bandits. :veryangry:

Quote from: njee20 on May 13, 2018, 09:14:48 PM

Quote from: Les1952 on May 13, 2018, 07:50:08 AM
Reading on another forum the guess there is that Dave, despite having paid the factory, may not currently have access to the tooling.

If so, he would not be the first (or indeed only current) manufacturer in this position.

So the suggestion is that the factory have not delivered the item and are holding the tooling ransom...? Seriously?

DJModels have also just cancelled their Class 74 in 00 gauge because although the contractor in China has been paid in advance no tangible output has been provided. Souns like it could be the same company.

Quote from: RailGooner on May 13, 2018, 09:57:57 PM
Presumably to ensure they get the business when the project is resumed. :censored: bandits. :veryangry:

I'm just struggling to believe that's how any factory would operate. It'd work for about a month!

This is really bad news and I believe it is even worse for Dave who is the initiator of this project.
We can only hope that the class 17 will come back in some years...

Having run factories in the far East, it comes as no surprise.  My guess is that there is a commercial standoff along the following lines.

I know you have paid us upfront for the CAD and EPs and that we have a contract and agreed price, but our costs have just gone up and we cannot move forward until you pay us more money.  As we have spent more than you have paid us so far we are not prepared to release the CAD or EPs either until you pay us more money.  Oh by the way we trade under Chinese contract law, which allows us to adjust a contract to reflect true cost, you don't have a legal leg to stand on.  By the way we are also doing this because someone paying us more (probably as a backhander) has just bought your manufacturing slot.  Welcome to doing business in China.

One last thought.

The Chinese are quite focused in their business dealings, seriously researching their clients to see what price they can screw out of them. 

You can be sure they monitor both the DJM website and our various forums discussing his products. 

Lets hope they have not drawn the conclusion that Dave was vulnerable due to the public criticism, and therefore open to being strong armed on price something they do to each other all the time.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 14, 2018, 02:02:54 PM
Having run factories in the far East, it comes as no surprise.  My guess is that there is a commercial standoff along the following lines.

I know you have paid us upfront for the CAD and EPs and that we have a contract and agreed price, but our costs have just gone up and we cannot move forward until you pay us more money.  As we have spent more than you have paid us so far we are not prepared to release the CAD or EPs either until you pay us more money.  Oh by the way we trade under Chinese contract law, which allows us to adjust a contract to reflect true cost, you don't have a legal leg to stand on.  By the way we are also doing this because someone paying us more (probably as a backhander) has just bought your manufacturing slot.  Welcome to doing business in China.

answer ?

made in britain, and sod china !

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 14, 2018, 03:46:40 PM
One last thought.

The Chinese are quite focused in their business dealings, seriously researching their clients to see what price they can screw out of them. 

You can be sure they monitor both the DJM website and our various forums discussing his products. 

Lets hope they have not drawn the conclusion that Dave was vulnerable due to the public criticism, and therefore open to being strong armed on price something they do to each other all the time.

In the grand scheme of things (in business terms) DJM's contracts are pretty small so I think it's far more likely that a bigger more profitable job came along and they shelved DJM's work. I hardly think they're going to monitor the NGF and decide they can screw him down for 'another' £500k. I think that's stretching reality a bit my friend.

Quote from: class37025 on May 14, 2018, 07:59:28 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 14, 2018, 02:02:54 PM
Having run factories in the far East, it comes as no surprise.  My guess is that there is a commercial standoff along the following lines.

I know you have paid us upfront for the CAD and EPs and that we have a contract and agreed price, but our costs have just gone up and we cannot move forward until you pay us more money.  As we have spent more than you have paid us so far we are not prepared to release the CAD or EPs either until you pay us more money.  Oh by the way we trade under Chinese contract law, which allows us to adjust a contract to reflect true cost, you don't have a legal leg to stand on.  By the way we are also doing this because someone paying us more (probably as a backhander) has just bought your manufacturing slot.  Welcome to doing business in China.

answer ?

made in britain, and sod china !

Life almost certainly is not that simple - as when Grafar moved production nearly 20 years ago there would be a famine for a long while if they attempted to move production.  Not least because the Chinese would probably not release the machinery.   But the sentiment is understandable.  If that is the far Eastern attitude to their customers, not least if they habitually break promises then good riddance to them.  I would not want to do business on that basis.

Hard to know what the answer is - especially in the long term.
Personally, I've believed for years that the Chinese "low cost production" would last only as long as was needed to ensure that the other nations' manufacturing base for the product in question was well and truly dead in the water.
THEN, once you have the buyers on their knees and with little choice where to go for their product, you hike the price up and up.
Additionally, of course, buyers trying then to switch to another country of manufacture would, in all probability, incur the (already well documented) problems of such as "missing" or "broken" tooling, having to educate a whole new supplier in the niceties of quality control, the need for them to at least provide some semblance of a time frame, etc......... 
Not just the Western nations falling foul of these practices either, I suspect. Japan and Korea especially must be looking over their shoulders by now. From my own experience, the Korean shipyards are already feeling the pain from their neighbours across the sea.

And where will the next cheap manufacturing base with a well educated workforce come from?

North Korea of course.  I give it ten years and our models will be made there.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 14, 2018, 08:42:27 PM
And where will the next cheap manufacturing base with a well educated workforce come from?

North Korea of course.  I give it ten years and our models will be made there.

Bangladesh is already a major diecast vehicle producer for Ixo and Atlas Editions. When Hornby took over Arnold/Lima much of the better Lima N tooling never made it from Italy, and some of the 00 gauge items found their way to another range (Vi-trains).

Be interesting to hear more from Dave especially as he's reading this at the moment ;) ;)

Hi,
i'm not going to add to this thread at this time, as i dont think i can say anything without possibly making the situation regarding the tools etc worse, as someone pointed out in an earlier message.....'walls have ears'.

sorry, maybe when things are sorted or its dead completely i'll say more.
cheers
Dave

Here's hoping that you can get summat else rolling soon.

:thumbsup:

(I'd love to see the N J94!)

:D

Anyone got a Parkwood Kit Clayton to sell? I sold mine 5 years ago in anticipation of the DJ version.

Sorry keeping my Parkwood until something better appears

Has anyone any thoughts on re-motorizing a Lima version.

what is the size and detail like, I know the motor is  :censored:

It's not a real class 17,it's an ancient DB v100 with a paint job

Just as well I have a Parkwood kit and mechanism then.  :)

Quote from: javlinfaw7 on May 30, 2018, 10:17:49 PM
It's not a real class 17,it's an ancient DB v100 with a paint job

Yep completely different proportion to a class 17 (too short for one thing), and the Lima effort had a huge lump in the side to accommodate the mechanism. Don't bother.

[edit]
Something like the Kato DD13 might be a better basis for a 17 - with a replacement cab? Is that what the Parkwood model uses for a chassis anyway?

Yes it is a DD13chassis under my Parkwood

Yes DD13 and it is a very nice chassis.  Its just way down my build list.

Guess we are all equally as bummed that the model got dropped.  :'(
Hopefully it will get made once day soon.  :hmmm:

I was REALLY looking forwards to getting the ones i had ordered.

Craig

From what I recall, the Parkwood model was deliberately made short to allow it to fit onto the DD13 chassis anyway ?

I've managed to contact Parkwood & they still have a few bodies left for £16 including postage!

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 30, 2018, 10:08:11 PM
Has anyone any thoughts on re-motorizing a Lima version.

what is the size and detail like, I know the motor is  :censored:

Throw away the motor, bogies, chassis, body, and any other bits left, and you have a good basis for conversion :D

Quote from: javlinfaw7 on May 30, 2018, 10:17:49 PM
It's not a real class 17,it's an ancient DB v100 with a paint job

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8354/28969435276_d7108cf1be_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/L8VVQ1)

Side-by-side with the Fleischmann version:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8632/28382340624_18182ffda4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Kf3V3q)

QuoteThrow away the motor, bogies, chassis, body, and any other bits left, and you have a good basis for conversion :D

Its amazing what you can create starting with a couple of screws :D

You should then replace those screws asap

Quote from: railsquid on June 01, 2018, 04:13:21 AM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 30, 2018, 10:08:11 PM
Has anyone any thoughts on re-motorizing a Lima version.

what is the size and detail like, I know the motor is  :censored:

Throw away the motor, bogies, chassis, body, and any other bits left, and you have a good basis for conversion :D

Quote from: javlinfaw7 on May 30, 2018, 10:17:49 PM
It's not a real class 17,it's an ancient DB v100 with a paint job

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8354/28969435276_d7108cf1be_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/L8VVQ1)

Side-by-side with the Fleischmann version:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8632/28382340624_18182ffda4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Kf3V3q)

:sick:
Come back, DJM. All is forgiven

class 17 is the best looking diesel loco never made in n gauge imo

closely followed by metrovick co-bo

anyway djm dave i really hope you can get this back on track somehow and if it has to go fully crowd funded and start again with a new factory and so on then count me in


tim

I seem to remember a cab for the Clayton in the Bill Bedford range - once had one, built it up and then trod on it ! Grrrrr !

Hey though, Railsquid's idea is not without merit, now I own one of these...

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/65/255-020618050145.jpeg)

I wonder if some talented person could be persuaded to do the CAD to produce a modern 3D printed version of the 17 for a suitable RTR chassis?

Roy

I bought this model in Tokyo cos I was running out of tourist dollars and it was the cheapest!

At the time, I never realised I'd bought me way into this discussion!

But, now that I've got one, I'm all ears! :beers:

No smart comments, NPN  :beers:

Quote from: Bealman on June 02, 2018, 12:49:34 PM
But, now that I've got one, I'm all ears! :beers:

No smart comments, NPN  :beers:

Stuff that. As the French would say "Je suis tous d'oreilles" :laugh3:

La plume de ma tante est dans l'oreille du chat

I think.... apologies to our French members.... my school boy French is rusty, especially after wrestling with 3 weeks in Japan!  ;)

And your oreilles are big anyway.  ;D

Trust 2 moderators to go so far off topic ::)

 :offtopicsign:

You got there first.

:offtopicsign:

Well if the tooling is stuck in China what chance some "enterprising" {- other names are available} person moulds genuine knock offs as happened with some LGB wagons a while back.  Given it was seemingly so close then it should not to be too unlikely.

Robert